Southwell Fowler

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SunHoney
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:47 am

Southwell Fowler

Post by SunHoney » Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:01 am

Hi all, I'm new and very glad I found this site! I'm from California and about half-Scottish. My whole life people have asked me if my red hair is because I'm Irish and I have to sigh and say, no, I'm Scottish!

However, doing my ancestry I did find someone born in Ireland. But I cannot find any information on this man anywhere! It's so frustrating. I'm wondering if it's an issue with the name. Some of this information could be wrong. Here's what I have.

This info is certain: my 2nd great-grandfather was Francis Fowler Jr, b. Jun 26 1859 in Kilmarnock, East Ayrshire. He arrived in the United States in 1881. This might have been due to him becoming a Mormon - I have family that converted in England and came to America to preach. He settled in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Now, from here on it's possible there could be mistakes. His father was Francis Fowler Sr, b. abt 1837 in Belfast, N. Ireland. Married Elizabeth McKean, b. Kilmarnock, Scotland (seems he met her there maybe, they settled down, and my 2nd g-grandfather was then born in Kilmarnock as well) in 1859. He died in 1889, either in Wyoming or Utah. Probably Utah.

This is where I'm really unsure of whether I have the right person, or name, or info. I can't find this name anywhere. *Supposedly* Francis Sr.'s father was Southwell Fowler, b. 1790 in Ireland, death unknown. Married Isabella McGinnis b 1790, d 1850.

I can't find this Southwell anywhere. (And what an unusual name!) I got this info from someone's tree on Ancestry.com so I have no way to verify where they got it from. Ancestry can be extremely unreliable, though using their hints as a suggestion and chasing down the lead other ways can definitely lead to great results. But you have to verify, and I can't.

Does anyone have ideas on how I can suss this out? I know Francis Fowler and father are correct. Just can't figure out their predecessor. Thank you all so much. I'm happy to have found this place. :)

SarahND
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Re: Southwell Fowler

Post by SarahND » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:40 am

Hello SunHoney and [TS_welcome]

Have you downloaded Francis’s birth certificate from scotlandspeople.gov.uk? I see it is there with the spelling Fouler. Unfortunately, from 1856-1860 the parents’ marriage information is not given on the certificate, but you can check the birth records of some of his siblings, which should note the date and place of the parents’ marriage. On the marriage certificate, if you can find it, would be the names of their parents also, so very useful.

Siblings you can try:
In the 1861 census the family consists of Francis age 24, Elizabeth age 24, Francis age 1 and William W, age 1 Mo

By 1871 they have 3 more children: Thomas age 6, John age 5 and Alexander age 1

By 1881 they have 2 more sons: James age 8 and Joseph age 1. No sign of Francis Sr in that census (just looking at the Ancestry transcription) - could he have died before they left Scotland or have you seen a passenger list with him on it arriving in the U.S.? If he did die in Scotland, it is important to have a look at his death certificate for his parents’ information. That said, I’m not seeing a death certificate for him, so maybe that’s not helpful.

All the best,
Sarah

AndrewP
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Re: Southwell Fowler

Post by AndrewP » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:47 am

HI SunHoney,

[TS_welcome]

The period of time around the 1840s and 1850s were particularly hard times in Ireland. In particular there were food shortages, principally "the Potato Famine". During this period (and more), there was a lot of movement between Ireland and Scotland or England. From 1801 to 1922, the whole of Ireland was a part of the United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Ireland). Following the uprising in 1916 and a number of years of conflict, Northern Ireland was created from six counties of Ulster, and the rest of Ireland became the Irish Free State. Northern Ireland remained part if the UK (renamed as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, as it remains today). The Irish Free State became an independent country, later known as Eire or the Republic of Ireland. When (the whole of) Ireland was part of the UK, there were no immigration papers for those who moved from one part to another - it was merely moving around a country. The same applies for Northern Ireland after its setup. During the period when things were at there hardest in Ireland, industry was expanding in Scotland and England. Many Irish men became workers in the mining, shipbuilding, railway building and other heavy industries, which is where particular parts of Scotland and England became home to large numbers of families of Irish descent.

In Scottish census records, for someone born outside of Scotland, they were usually listed as English, Irish, Welsh or Foreign. Sometimes for England, Ireland or Wales, the census enumerator took more information than he was required to and you get a county or town name for Irish (or Welsh or English) folks. However, this was more the exception than the rule. As the census records are covered by a 100 year closure, and they are every 10 years, 1911 is the newest census that is available for us all to search. On that basis, Ireland was still whole at the time of these censuses, so Irish or Ireland on these records refers to the whole of Ireland, prior to partition.

Anyway, back to your folks. I did a search of the indexes on ScotlandsPeople (an index search is free nowadays). It doesn't look like any Southwell Fowler died, married or was born in Scotland; nor appeared in the censuses, so he probably stayed in Ireland rather than come to Scotland with his son. A search of these records for any surname appearing with a first name, gave Southwell as a middle name for some. One person appeared in the 1881 and 1891 censuses with Southwell as a first name (surname Lauther). Of all of these people with first name or middle name Southwell, none had surnames that you would consider as mis-spellings (or possible alternative spellings) of Fowler.

On looking at Francis (sr) and Elizabeth McKean's marriage certificate, the parents of the couple are as you have given. The other relevant fact to pick up on from that certificate is that they were married in the Roman Catholic faith. That makes a difference to the record sets you would be seeking in Ireland.

Between Francis (jr)'s birth certificate and his parents' subsequent marriage certificate, there are various spellings of surnames: FOULER or FOWLER, McKEAN or McCANE. In each case, the couple signed their names with an X-mark, so it is reasonable to assume that the spelling of the names were all from the registrar's interpretation of the couple's spoken words.

You have your work cut out for you tracing these folks in Irish records in an era where spelling was a varied thing.

All the best,

AndrewP

nelmit
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Location: Scotland

Re: Southwell Fowler

Post by nelmit » Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:37 pm

No help at all but interesting that Thomas born 1864 at Kilmarnock is indexed as Southwell, which ended up his middle name, in the IGI.

Name Southwell Fowler
Gender Male
Birth Date 06 Aug 1864
Birthplace KILMARNOCK,AYR,SCOTLAND
Father's Name Francis Fowler
Mother's Name Elizabeth Mckane

Perhaps Francis's father was know by a different name too.

The family is well documented at the LDS site after leaving Scotland.

Regards,
Annette

nelmit
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Location: Scotland

Re: Southwell Fowler

Post by nelmit » Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:51 pm

Francis Fowler Jnr died in Utah in 1936.

Name Francis Fowler
Event Date 27 Oct 1936
Event Type Death
Event Place Salt Lake City, Salt Lake, Utah
Gender Male
Age 77
Marital Status Widowed
Race White
Birth Date 26 Jun 1859
Birthplace Scotland
Father's Name Francis Fowler
Mother's Name Elizabeth Mc Kane
Spouse's Name Janette Hughs Fowler
Document Type Certificate of Death

Regards,
Annette

SunHoney
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:47 am

Re: Southwell Fowler

Post by SunHoney » Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:22 pm

could he have died before they left Scotland or have you seen a passenger list with him on it arriving in the U.S.? If he did die in Scotland, it is important to have a look at his death certificate for his parents’ information. That said, I’m not seeing a death certificate for him, so maybe that’s not helpful.
Sarah: That's useful to look into! I can make an attempt to find a passenger list. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and helping me out. :)
The other relevant fact to pick up on from that certificate is that they were married in the Roman Catholic faith. That makes a difference to the record sets you would be seeking in Ireland.
Andrew: Very interesting! That's great to know. Your background on the history of Ireland is fantastic. Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. I know a little bit about when Ireland became separate, from the RTE mini-series Rebellion, which was extremely interesting to me, and I've had a desire to learn more from more than just a tv show. :P

I had the opportunity to spend a month in Ireland but it was 10 years ago, wouldn't it have been nice to known some of this and perhaps found a town I could visit! I do know where my ancestors lived in Scotland at least, so I hope to go one day and have the chance to look around and maybe find their graves.

Thanks to ALL of you for your help and thoughts. It's great to have a place where I can mentally work some of this out and get opinions. :)

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