Englands in Scotland

preiii · Post by **preiii** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:20 am

Hello all,

I've posted here previously but figured I'd try again to see if any new ideas have come up.

I'm doing some family research and have always been able to trace my surname back to Scotland (I live in the USA). Apparently a Robert England landed in New Brunswick, Canada in the 1780s.

There are records of a Robert England being born 1756 in Speymouth Parish, Moray Co., Scotland. This could be the same guy (interestingly, the Scottish records indicate he's a twin -- and there are lots of twins in my family tree).

Anyway, my big question is, what would someone with the surname "England" be doing up in Co. Moray in the 18th century? The Scottish Robert had a father, Robert, and a grandfather, William, so the England name goes back at least into the late 1600s in that region.

Does anyone have any idea about the origins of such a surname? Does it mean, for example, that the "original" England was from England, and used that surname to indicate his difference from the Scottish population?

Are there any Englands out there living in Scotland who might have an idea about the history of their surname?

Thanks, and Happy New Year to all!

Paul

Post by **AndrewP** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:13 pm

Hi Paul,

The following Englands found on the online IGI are all in the same area. Some of them are definitely the same family group, but given the rarity ofthe name in the area, I would be very surprised if they are not all related. The problem is try proving that.

JAMES ENGLAND OR GARIOCH - Christening: 07 OCT 1750 Rothes, Moray, Scotland
Father: ROBERT ENGLAND, Mother: AGNAS GARIOCH

ROBERT ENGLAND / AGNAS GARIOCH
Marriage: 23 SEP 1751 Rothes, Moray, Scotland

JANET ENGLAND - Christening: 05 SEP 1753 Speymouth, Moray, Scotland
Father: ROBERT ENGLAND, Mother: AGNES GARIOCH

ALEXANDER ENGLAND - Christening: 07 NOV 1756 Speymouth, Moray, Scotland
Father: ROBERT ENGLAND, Mother: AGNES GARIOCH

ROBERT ENGLAND - Christening: 07 NOV 1756 Speymouth, Moray, Scotland
Father: ROBERT ENGLAND, Mother: AGNES GARIOCH

JANNET ENGLAND - Christening: 10 DEC 1774 Speymouth, Moray, Scotland
Father: JAMES ENGLAND, Mother: MARGRAT TAYLOR

JOHN ENGLAND - Christening: 10 FEB 1775 Speymouth, Moray, Scotland
Father: JOHN ENGLAND, Mother: ISABELL DUSTAN

ALEXANDER SHAND / JEAN ENGLAND
Marriage: 09 JUL 1784 Speymouth, Moray, Scotland

There are many more in Rothes parish - 9 children to William England and Janet Allan (1715 to 1730), 2 children to Alexander England and Janet Geddes (1740 to 1742), and 5 children to George England and Jean Geddes (1762 to 1771). Fathers George and Alexander are almost certainly two of William and Janet's nine.

All the best,

AndrewP

preiii · Post by **preiii** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:14 pm

Thanks, Andrew,

Those last 3 names were new to me.

Even though I haven't been able to find any records of immigration from Scotland, it really seems like this is all the same family, what with the repetition of first names and the frequency of twins. I didn't know that the surname was rare (though I suspected it might be), so that's another good sign this is the same family.

That surname "England" just seems to beg for an explanation, though, considering the farthest back I can trace it is to northern Scotland. I guess I have a couple tentative theories of my own; I wonder what anyone thinks:

1) If the surname "England" is meant to indicate that the bearer was in fact from England, it might indicate some immigration to Scotland from England. Under what circumstances might an Englishman move to northern Scotland in the 17th-early 18th century? A connection to the infamous "highland clearances", perhaps?

2) maybe the surname "England" doesn't indicate country of origin at all; I read that it could be Scandinavian in origin: "eng" or "ing"-land being the land around a low, wet meadow. Is that type of geography consistent with the land around Rothes?

So many questions.... thanks for help!

Paul

iluvu2 · Post by **iluvu2** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:42 am

HELLO from Scotland, I went to school with a Billy England,in the 70,s

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:42 am

Hello Paul,

As to the origin of the surname “England” in Scotland your guess is probably the most obvious one and is probably as good as any. But if you search for England/English, Wales/Welsh and Scotland/Scottish/Scotch as surnames on the ScotlandsPeople Home Page http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/index.aspx you’ll find some interesting figures, especially in the OPRs that might throw doubt on the “man from England” theory. How would you explain the “Scotland” name in Scotland? (Not to mention Scot and Scott)

Similarly, if you search for the names in the post 1837 English/Welsh records at FreeBMD you’ll get similar indications. http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

ScotlandsPeople
Old Parish Records Births & Christenings 1553-1854
England = 211
English = 250
Wales = 297
Welsh = 2639
Scotland = 1602
Scottish/Scotch = Nil

FreeBMD
Births 1837-1854
(approximate numbers)
England = 2200
English = 1700
Wales = 750
Welsh = 2100
Scotland = 40
Scottish/Scotch = Nil

Possibly just a bunch of useless statistics but might give a clue as to how difficult it would be to establish the real origin of the name. Perhaps there were political motives, and these names may sometimes have been adopted during times of war, civil unrest, mixed loyalties or fierce nationalism?

Just guessing but hope it helps,
Alan

Post by **SarahND** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:27 am

Hi Paul,
I would tend to go with option 2. Not from any hard facts, alas, but just from experience with Historical Linguistics. It could be Scandinavian, as you suggest, or could have been something that had local meaning and "sounded like" England to speakers of English. Over time, when spelling came to be more regular, it was fixed as England by "folk etymology".*
Again, just a guess, but a likely one I think.
All the best,
Sarah

*Another example of Folk Etymology would be the word "shame-faced" which has nothing to do with a face, but sounded similar. It is from Old English scamfæst = scamu 'shame' + fæst 'fast, fixed' So "fixed in shame," rather than "with a shameful face"!

preiii · Post by **preiii** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:35 pm

Wow, thanks for the replies everyone. It's surprising to see the number of Wales/Welsh names there! Very interesting that, in the first, earlier list, "England" is the smallest group, while in the later list it forms the largest of those groups.

Also neat to know there are some Englands still in Scotland, at least in the 1970s. I wonder what Scottish Englands think of their surname!

That is a good point about Folk etymology. Might lend some credence to the idea that the Scottish Englands had pretty deep roots in Scotland, rather than being recent emigrants from England.

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:41 am

Hello preiii
Somewhere in the depths of this forum there is a web page which informs on the distribution of any given surname at two moments in time over the last one hundred plus years or so.
Even though I haven't made a connection yet,my own unadulterated name clearly originates in Aberdeen by dint of its wieghted concentration in that area even today.
Although the name Scot is not unusual in England, the name England in England is almost unheard of. Have I confused you yet? I have a feeling that this is a Scotish name and I will try to find the relevant website for you. My archiving isn't good however.
I'm hoping this will trigger someone else's memory or detailed knowledge. I seem to remember that a lady with the unusual name of Pinkshoes gave me the information originally.
Not much help so far but, watch this space.

Post by **SarahND** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:02 am

Hi Malcolm,
I think this topic is what you were looking for:

http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3109

(Just hit the search button above, put Malcolm in the search terms and pinkshoes in the author search and up it comes

)

All the best,
Sarah

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:17 pm

Sarah. that’s amazing. Your ingenuity went straight to the spatial literacy site. Unfortunately it seems that the website is no longer running. I seem to remember there was some of criticism of it when I first came accross the site for the first time.
I have taken a closer look and it appears that the project has been taken over by the National Trust of all people.
They show that that there is a probability that the name ‘England’ is more likely to be English than Scottish by about five hundred to one. There goes my theory! In fact the name is more Welsh than Scottish by about three to one. It would seem the Scots were reluctant to adopt this name. I can’t think why.
However,if you visit www.nationaltrustnames.org.uk/ you can see for yourself. Just follow the links. This a very interesting subject but, let’s be aware, these are just statistics!
Hoping this helps
M