PARENTS OF ROSALIE KIRKHAM MARRIED NAME WRIGHT

Southern part of Great Britain

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barnsleymeth2000
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:31 pm

PARENTS OF ROSALIE KIRKHAM MARRIED NAME WRIGHT

Post by barnsleymeth2000 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:52 pm

Hi,
I am trying to find out the parents of Rosalie Kirkham who was born on 1 12 1925 in Bakewell, Derbyshire. I have looked on the BMD site but it does not say. Any ideas how I can trace them and where they lived etc. I am a relation to the above and know who she married and he is not alive and she died
Thank you in anticipation.

arthurk
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:19 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: PARENTS OF ROSALIE KIRKHAM MARRIED NAME WRIGHT

Post by arthurk » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:36 am

How sure are you about Bakewell? Might it be the first place she remembered living as a child, but not where she was born?

The reason I ask is that FreeBMD has a birth entry in the December quarter of 1925 in West Derby, a district of Liverpool, for a Rosalie Kirkham with mother's maiden name Hunt (ref. 8b 697).

If you think there's anything in this, there are a few Kirkham-Hunt marriages that might be relevant, and knowing Rosalie's father's name from her marriage certificate would help you to see if any of them might be the right one.

Have you looked at the 1939 Register (available online for England)? Although Rosalie was born less than 100 years ago, if her death has been noted her entry could now be visible, and with any luck that would show her with one or both parents.
Kennedy (PER > LKS > ARM > England); Campbell, Rutherford, McDonald, Sinclair (all PER)
Wilson, Millar (RFW & LKS); Duncan (LKS); Hastings (KKD) (all > WRY)

barnsleymeth2000
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:31 pm

Re: PARENTS OF ROSALIE KIRKHAM MARRIED NAME WRIGHT

Post by barnsleymeth2000 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:09 pm

Thank you for this information. On her death cert (which I have copy) It does say Bakewell for place of birth and it does give the address she died at.
I know the address which she died is 100%.

Do you think it would be helpful to order a copy of the marriage cert?

arthurk
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:19 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: PARENTS OF ROSALIE KIRKHAM MARRIED NAME WRIGHT

Post by arthurk » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:15 pm

Yes, I think your best move would be to order a copy of her marriage certificate. Then when you have her father's name, you might be able to find her parents' marriage. It would also enable you to try to order Rosalie's birth certificate, since you can specify that the father's name must match what you have - and if they then can't find it, you get your money back.

Meanwhile, I've just had a look at FreeBMD for the births of any other children with the surname Kirkham and mother's maiden name Hunt (as in the 1925 registration I found), and there are quite a few in the Liverpool area. Do they match any of Rosalie's siblings that you know of? If they do, it makes that 1925 entry much more likely.

However, while doing all of this, remember that what you see on a death certificate is sometimes provided by someone who only has secondhand or partial information about the person. 1 Dec 1925 in Bakewell seems to be partly inaccurate, so you need to be looking more widely, both on the date and the place. Having said that, looking at the whole of England and Wales on FreeBMD with wildcards (Ros* Kirk*) from 1915-1935 didn't produce anything that looked more likely.
Kennedy (PER > LKS > ARM > England); Campbell, Rutherford, McDonald, Sinclair (all PER)
Wilson, Millar (RFW & LKS); Duncan (LKS); Hastings (KKD) (all > WRY)

barnsleymeth2000
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:31 pm

Re: PARENTS OF ROSALIE KIRKHAM MARRIED NAME WRIGHT

Post by barnsleymeth2000 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:10 pm

Thank you for this information. I shall order a copy of the marriage cert.

barnsleymeth2000
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:31 pm

Re: PARENTS OF ROSALIE KIRKHAM MARRIED NAME WRIGHT

Post by barnsleymeth2000 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:56 pm

A copy of the marriage cert arrived in the post today and gives her fathers name as Charles Kirkham (deceased).

arthurk
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:19 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: PARENTS OF ROSALIE KIRKHAM MARRIED NAME WRIGHT

Post by arthurk » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:12 pm

According to Lancashire BMD (http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/index.php) a Charles Kirkham married Rose E Hunt in Kirkdale in 1906. This makes the Rosalie born in the West Derby district in 1925 seem quite a strong possibility.

However, as well as her marriage certificate and (presumably) her birth certificate, it would be good to find further evidence of the connection. Might Charles have left a will mentioning her?

What I'm saying is that you know that Rosalie's father was Charles, and that it seems the Charles in the Liverpool had a daughter Rosalie. What you need to try and do now is prove that these are the same father and daughter, and not just two families which happen to have the same names.
Kennedy (PER > LKS > ARM > England); Campbell, Rutherford, McDonald, Sinclair (all PER)
Wilson, Millar (RFW & LKS); Duncan (LKS); Hastings (KKD) (all > WRY)

barnsleymeth2000
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:31 pm

Re: PARENTS OF ROSALIE KIRKHAM MARRIED NAME WRIGHT

Post by barnsleymeth2000 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:08 pm

I shall do a little more digging. Is there a free website for finding wills? Thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

arthurk
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:19 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: PARENTS OF ROSALIE KIRKHAM MARRIED NAME WRIGHT

Post by arthurk » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:47 am

For England and Wales the site for finding wills is https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills - this is the official government site, and you can order pdf copies for £1.50.

I've done a bit more digging too and found the 1906 marriage in Kirkdale of Charles Kirkham and Rose Emma Hunt. An image of the register can be seen at Family Search - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... TSPN?i=142 This is free to view, though you might need to register first. I see that Charles was a fireman: what was the occupation given on Rosalie's marriage certificate?

It would be quite helpful to find when Charles died, and FreeBMD does have a death to match the age in the marriage register, in the West Derby district, in Mar qtr 1927. However, I haven't found anything to confirm it's the right one. FreeBMD might have other possibilities too.

I haven't managed to work out for definite what happened to Rose. The 1939 Register has a Rose Kirkham, widow, born 1884, in Liverpool, and one of the household is a Charles born 1908, who from the GRO birth index could well be Rosalie's brother. The household includes two redacted entries, and since Rosalie was born less than 100 years ago it's possible she might be one of them.

Beyond that there's the death of a Rose E Kirkham in Darwen in 1941 (age 56), and Rose A Kirkham in Bakewell in 1960 (age 76); allowing for a mistake in the middle name (Amy for Emma, perhaps??) either of those might be the right one. There's also a marriage of a Rose Kirkham to Harold Smith in Liverpool South in 1941, but I haven't followed that up. For the deaths, you might be able to order a certificate specifying that the deceased must be widow of Charles - and with any luck, the Bakewell death in particular might have been registered by Rosalie (though as informants can vary you shouldn't specify that as a condition).

Beyond that, you might need to look a bit more widely to try to pick up clues. What happened to all the children of Charles and Rose Emma Kirkham in the Liverpool area? Might any of them have mentioned Rosalie in a will, with a link to Bakewell? Or what about Charles's father John? For mid-late 20th century research your main sources are going to be things like wills, electoral registers, newspapers and memorials, plus of course BMD certificates - it's not always easy.

EDITED TO ADD:
On further reflection, I wonder if it would now be a good idea to order the birth certificate for Rosalie in West Derby in 1925. It would cost you £11.00 (this is for a paper copy - pdfs are available for some years but not this one), but it might save a lot of time and effort looking at other sources. If it did then show the date of birth as you have it, I think you could be fairly sure you have the right one, as the chances of there being two Rosalie Kirkhams born on the same day with a father Charles are fairly slim. It wouldn't be 100% certain, though, so it would be best practice to check out as many of the other things as you can, to see if there's any corroborating evidence.
Kennedy (PER > LKS > ARM > England); Campbell, Rutherford, McDonald, Sinclair (all PER)
Wilson, Millar (RFW & LKS); Duncan (LKS); Hastings (KKD) (all > WRY)

barnsleymeth2000
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:31 pm

Re: PARENTS OF ROSALIE KIRKHAM MARRIED NAME WRIGHT

Post by barnsleymeth2000 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:13 pm

I think I shall be ordering the birth cert for Rosalie Kirkham. On the marriage cert it does say her dad was a seaman in the merchant navy. I am trying to contact a cousin on mine who is older than me to see if she remembers anything.

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