Birth in Ireland

Bernadette · Post by **Bernadette** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:41 pm

Can anyone help please or offer suggestions?
My g-grandfather was married in Paisley in 1864, and died in 1899 in Scotland. Found these on Scotlands people and have the marriage certificate. His place of birth is given as just Ireland, and his father James also from Ireland.
Without knowing what year they moved to Scotland, I don't know if James also moved to Scotland or remained in Ireland.
Is there anywhere I can found out when they arrived, or, even better, can I find out d.o.b. for Bernard, which I presume from marriage and death details to be around 1839? I'd really be grateful for any help, have been struggling with this for many years.

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:16 pm

Hi Bernadette
There is no quick answer to this one!
We have alist of links here http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10339 which may be of some help, but as Irish Statutory Registration did not start across the board until 1864, you are probably going to be reliant on Church Records for that period.

His marriage should give you some clues as to whther the family were RC or Protestant, which is a start. Have you chakced all Scottish census in which they appear?
Just sometimes you get a little more than just Ireland...
The surname may help you find the most likely areas of Ireland. What is Bernard's surname? And who is James's wife? (given on Bernard's marriage in 1864)

Best wishes
Lesley

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:05 pm

Bernadette wrote:Can anyone help please or offer suggestions?
My g-grandfather was married in Paisley in 1864, and died in 1899 in Scotland. Found these on Scotlands people and have the marriage certificate. His place of birth is given as just Ireland, and his father James also from Ireland.
Without knowing what year they moved to Scotland, I don't know if James also moved to Scotland or remained in Ireland.
Is there anywhere I can found out when they arrived, or, even better, can I find out d.o.b. for Bernard, which I presume from marriage and death details to be around 1839? I'd really be grateful for any help, have been struggling with this for many years.

Lesley, I'm chancing the Devine route as there is death of a Bernard in 1899.

Was his mother's name Isabella by any chance and was his address Moss St when he married? If so I'm pretty sure the family were living at Paisley in 1851 & 1861.

Regards,
Annette

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:32 pm

Hi Annette & Bernadette

I'll go look up where that surname occurs mostly.

Is there anywhere I can found out when they arrived

If, like a lot of other Irish immigrants, they hit hard times and applied for poor relief, you may be lucky and find some further information that way, such as how long they have been in Scotland and if you are lucky, origin in Ireland, if all other methods draw a blank. But not all Irish immigrants did apply for poor relief! The Poor Relief records are held at the Mitchell Library in Glasgow.

I have several Irish individuals arriving in Scotland from the 1850s onwards, and I can only guess the date of their arrival from evidence such as marriages in Scotland, census appearances etc. as there were no records made at the time of arrivals from Ireland.

Best wishes
Lesley

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:40 pm

OK, Devine appears to be not so specific to particular areas as some surnames are:
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/index.htm

Pretty much all over Ireland with highest numbers of births (in 1890) being in Tyrone (98 ), Derry (50) & Dublin (39). But lots of name variations to take into account too....

It also says:

Devine numerous: Ulster, N Leinster, Connacht etc. Ir. Ó Daimhín. A sept of Fermanagh, the name is widespread in Leath Chuinn (northern half); some Devines in the south are no doubt Ó Dubháin. SI & IF.

Bernadette · Post by **Bernadette** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:45 pm

Thanks to you all for your responses and assistance.
Yes, Bernard was Devine, his father James married Isabella McGonigle (that's what it looks like on Bernard's marriage certificate.)
But - I've never found any information prior to 1864, I've looked on census for 1861 and couldn't find anything - Anette do you think there is something there?
Bernard was living at Moss St in Paisley at the time of his marriage - everything else is a mystery, although I've found them and their children in the later census returns.
Also, can someone tell me please - do I need to visit Glasgow to look at the Poor Law information, or is it available on line?
Many thanks again
Bernadette

nancy · Post by **nancy** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:04 am

Hi Bernadette,my granny was a Devine but on a few records has appeared as Devan and Diven. I take it you've tried variations.
She was Agnes and father was William and believe it was Siann Mills Strabane area they were from.I check poor law records in Paisley library and they are very helpful too.

Cheers Nancy

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:20 am

Hi Bernadette

Also, can someone tell me please - do I need to visit Glasgow to look at the Poor Law information, or is it available on line?

The Poor Law records are not online yet. If, as Nancy mentions there are Poor Law records held at Paisley Library, and if the family were based in Paisley, then that seems the more likely Library where the records, if there are any, might be held.

Best wishes
Lesley

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:59 am

Bernadette wrote:Thanks to you all for your responses and assistance.
Yes, Bernard was Devine, his father James married Isabella McGonigle (that's what it looks like on Bernard's marriage certificate.)
But - I've never found any information prior to 1864, I've looked on census for 1861 and couldn't find anything - Anette do you think there is something there?
Bernard was living at Moss St in Paisley at the time of his marriage - everything else is a mystery, although I've found them and their children in the later census returns.
Also, can someone tell me please - do I need to visit Glasgow to look at the Poor Law information, or is it available on line?
Many thanks again
Bernadette

I thought I had found the family in 1851 - 1861 but when I found them in 1871 they still had a Bernard living with them at 18 Moss Street so I don't want to post what I've found yet in case I'm going to confuse things. What number was your Bernard living at when he married?

Is he the one who married Mary Bradie and have you found them in 1871?

Regards,
Annette

Bernadette · Post by **Bernadette** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:15 pm

Annette thanks for looking on these for me.
Bernard lived at 18 Moss St, Paisley at the time of his marriage. His parents James and Isabella are showing as still living at that time, (unlike the parents of his wife Mary Bradie, who lived at 10 Old Sneddon, Paisley.)
When Bernard got married, however on the marriage certificate his name is Barnet, although it is Bernard on the death certificate.
I'm not sure if Barnet is a 'pet'name for Bernard? Perhaps like me getting called Berny instead of Bernadette? What do you think?
Thanks
Bernadette

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