U.S.-Canadian Border Crossing Records on Ancestry

Post by **Anne H** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:50 am

Hi again Sarah

You never stop

I just noticed your new post but my eyes won't stay open...talk to you tomorrow!

Anne

Post by **SarahND** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:46 pm

Hi Anne,
Hope you got some sleep after all last night! You are certainly very welcome-- I had a lot of fun with these folks. It's not often that I find someone who needs research done in a place where I actually am living (unlike those good people who live near NRH or the Mitchell, who do this on an ongoing basis-- hats off to you all!). As far as expense goes, I didn't even manage to do the one thing that costs a few pennies, i.e. make the copies

And I did make the appointment... just!

Anne H wrote:I had no idea that a State Census was in existence…

A number of states had their own censuses in the years between the federal ones. This is very helpful, especially between 1880 and 1900 where there is a 20-year gap. They are gradually being indexed and Ancestry has some of them (e.g. Iowa, Kansas) but Minnesota's haven't been done yet. It gives more information than I thought it would, having looked at the Iowa ones that really don't say much. It was also pretty entertaining going through the microfilm. I found numerous people who were born in such exotic places as "Itly" or "Rusha"

The enumerator of the 6th ward seemed to have particular problems with places of birth!

Anne H wrote:Ah! So Gertrude was born a year after the family arrived in Minnesota and she was Sarah’s last child, then poor Sarah died sometime within a four-year period, and Margaret and James were born to Daniel and Mary…. it’s so good to know the facts!

The only thing that I wonder about is the fact that Mary always puts on the census that she has had 4 children- William, Margaret and James only makes three. I am still unclear whether or not Gertrude is hers from her first marriage. In that case, Sarah could have died even before they left Scotland, but it does seem unlikely that he would have left on his own with all those small children. I will try to see if I can unearth any death records-- not sure how far back these go. The library only has back to 1899, but I think at the court house they have earlier ones.

Anne H wrote:Possibly John Lichliter and Harriet were William’s aunt and uncle.

This is one mystery we haven't figured out yet... If I can unearth Mary's first marriage record and find out her maiden name, then maybe we can see in the earlier censuses if she is Harriet's sister. Mary's death record may also give her maiden name if the informant knew enough...

Anne H wrote:C St P & K C Ry … looks like this means the Clinton, St. Paul & Kansas City Railway.

I've been meaning to look up what that 'C' was-- I thought it might be Chicago, but most of the references to the Chicago, St Paul & Kansas City Railway are abbreviated to Ch St P & K C so... not sure.

Anne H wrote:What does comp. bds mean on Charles’ line?

Good question! bds. is "boards", which means he was considered independent but was "boarding" at his father's! The "comp." should be his occupation. It seemed straightforward to me at the time, but I think my tired brain was interpreting it as French

and that he was some sort of accountant. But that doesn't work at all in English! Did he say he worked for a "Company"? Or was he just "companionable", "complimentary" and "compulsive"

Not sure

I'm pretty sure he didn't work with computers

Anne H wrote:I’m curious … I thought Daniel’s employment as a fireman/engineer meant that he was the person putting the coal on the fire to keep the train running, but would an employee with that kind of position advertise in a Directory using his companies name with his own home address?

I think you're right about his employment. I don't think it was Daniel advertising, but just the directory company being specific about each person's occupation. It is very nice of them to also include where people have gone when they are no longer there and when they died! Surprising in such a big city.

Sarah

heymarky · Post by **heymarky** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:14 pm

SarahND wrote:I found numerous people who were born in such exotic places as "Itly" or "Rusha" Laughing

I found someone in a Federal Census, living in Texas, born in Ioway. The index had it listed correctly as Iowa, but the enumerator had written it down in Texan.

By the way I'm keeping busy with the Iowa State census collection, but can't seem to find James (b1832), Hugh (b1834), and Isabella (b1838) Dyer, who should be in 1856. I'm expecting them to be in Scott county.

Oh, dear. I shouldn't have added this comment. Now I've thought of more things to try. My morning is shot!

Post by **SarahND** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:46 pm

heymarky wrote:I found someone in a Federal Census, living in Texas, born in Ioway. The index had it listed correctly as Iowa, but the enumerator had written it down in Texan.

Don't forget Mizoora (had one of those too and forgot to mention it)

Post by **Anne H** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:23 am

Hi Sarah,

Hope you got some sleep after all last night!

Yes, I managed to get a few hours and I’ve been dragging myself around all day long!

A number of states had their own censuses in the years between the federal ones.

Now that’s an interesting bit of information for all those family historians out there who are looking for their U.S. connections…three cheers for the States who gave us this wonderful additional information…I wonder if they knew we would be crying out for more information so many years down the line!

The only thing that I wonder about is the fact that Mary always puts on the census that she has had 4 children- William, Margaret and James only makes three.

Oh, you’re right, I hadn’t taken Mary’s having 4 children into account. In that case, unless she lost a child, then Gertrude may very well be Mary’s also.

I've been meaning to look up what that 'C' was-- I thought it might be Chicago, but most of the references to the Chicago, St Paul & Kansas City Railway are abbreviated to Ch St P & K C so... not sure.

It could well be Chicago…I thought of Clinton since the article seemed to be referring to an extension to the railway line…I’ve put the news clip in the Gallery in case you want a peak!

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1161

Did he say he worked for a "Company"? Or was he just "companionable", "complimentary" and "compulsive" Not sure I'm pretty sure he didn't work with computers

No, it wouldn't have been computers

...bet he would have marvelled at what we have today.

Actually, I had also been thinking along the lines of accountancy and thought it might be “comptroller” but changed my mind because he seemed too young to be in that type of position…at least we know how his career ended.

I’m off to read through your other post about Agnes

Regards,
Anne

Gallery URL added - AndrewP

Post by **Anne H** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:22 am

Hi again Sarah,

You are amazing! They could use your skills on the History Detectives on PBS!

I don’t know if that’s Agnes with husband Angus and son on all those records, but it certainly looks good.

Here they are in 1910-- had to look for him, since she was indexed as "Annus" and I searched for Agn*

All I can do is laugh

….. poor Agnes

now couldn’t somebody see that mistake

I can't read the year of their immigration in this one...

The immigration date on 1910 census looks like it might be 1895 for him and 1878 for Agnes…the immigration record I mentioned in my other post for Sarah, Annie and Mary was 1888…maybe she was a wee bit confused!!

In addition to your finds, this looks like Angus and Effie:

1920 Census: East 4th St. Rear, Anaconda, Deer Lodge, Montana
… Indexed as Agnes, Census has Agnus and male …
Agnus Murray, 47, S, born c1873, Scotland, immigrated 1895, naturalized 1900;
Parents born in Scotland, all speak Scotch; Occupation: Jig Man
(Don’t know if that’s S for single or D for divorced)

1920 Census: District 82, Ward 3, Philipsburg City, Granite County, Montana
McDonald, Malcolm, Head, 55, W, born Canada, English, Parents Scotland, Gaelic
--------------Hazel A. Daughter, 15, S, born Montana, English, Parents Canada, Gaelic
--------------Mary R. Daughter, 13, S, born Montana, English, Parents Canada, English
--------------Murray C. Son, 11, S, born Montana, English, Parents Canada, English
Murray, Effie Sister-in-law, 42, S, born Canada, English, Parents Scotland, Gaelic
Effie is a housekeeper in a private house & Malcolm is a miner in the silver mines

Death Records
Angus J. Murray, 52, born 1875, died 13 Feb 1927, Index #Ana 1152
Efffie Murray, 51, born 1876, died 24 Aug 1927, Index # GRA 299

It looks like Angus and Effie might be related but not sure about a marriage.

Now…with the very slight possibility that the status is divorced on the 1920 census for Angus I did find a 1920 census for an Agnes…but for the life of me, I don’t know what I did with it…too tired I think. Although, like poor wee John, possibly Agnes might have died too … but I’m not finding a thing. I had checked several times on SP in the past and didn’t see any DC’s for any of them, so if Agnes went back to Scotland, she’s lost somewhere!

I don’t think the Murry/Murray family you found would be related to Sarah’s family. Her parents, Edward Murray and Mary Finnigan were Irish and they were married in the Gorbals, Lanarkshire. All of the children, Ann Rose, Edward, Edward, Agnes, Sarah, Ruthven and Isabella were born in Old Monkland. So, it's possible that she did have relatives there...there are plenty of Irish Murray’s in that area of Montana who could have been related.

Okay, I think I have snowed you with enough information tonight It's just that I don't feel like cleaning the house

You’ve certainly kept me busy… it’s been great practice and entertaining into the bargain

Thanks for the diversion

Anything to oblige

I like this type of diversion too

Thanks again Sarah, my new contact is in for a big surprise. She has two young children and the baby has been keeping her up at night, so I’ll wait until she gets some sleep before telling her what awaits her on TS…she’ll get to enjoy it more!

I’m off to bed.

Regards,
Anne

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Post by **SarahND** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:12 pm

Hi Anne,
Nice work finding Effie and Angus/Agnus (!) Reversing sounds is a time-honored tradition in language called metathesis and is very common. Sometimes the switch sticks, like aks>ask. This last was one of my favorite examples to give in class, since it is one that people often use to disparage people who speak certain dialects that are looked down upon in the U.S.

In fact, aks is the earlier form (from Old English aksian/ahsian/axian) and ask is the dialectal metathesis

There are a few trees in the Ancestry World Tree Project with a family of Murrays who came from Scotland to Canada. There is an Angus born 1874 and an Effie born 1876. If they immigrated between those two births, Angus and Effie could be brother and sister. In the 1910 census Malcolm MacDonald's wife Annie is still living. The family of Angus and Effie above also has an older sister Ann born 1870. The only problem is that Ann says she was born in Canada, not Scotland, so maybe this is not the right Angus. It appears to be Effie's family, though. Their father was born on the Isle of Lewis and died in Quebec. Could be a relative of Angus anyway.

Hard to tell what happened to Agnes. There are several Agneses born in Scotland about the right time in the 1920 census in Montana. Only one has a plausible immigration date: Agnes Ator, wife of William in Sheridan County, Montana. But we would really need to find a marriage record for her and perhaps a divorce record, if she and Angus were divorced (these can be quite revealing... I highly recommend going to the courthouse and digging out the dusty old papers! The only problem is that often, if one doesn't do the digging oneself, one is told that the papers don't exist-- only to have them miraculously reappear when one does one's own digging). On looking at the 1920 census, I would say that Angus is definitely divorced-- worth a look? You wouldn't be wanting to spend your summer in the Rocky Mountains, by any chance? I recommend a trip to Yellowstone with a stop at the Anaconda (or Dillon, if they divorced in Beaverhead County) courthouse

Anne H wrote:Thanks again Sarah, my new contact is in for a big surprise. She has two young children and the baby has been keeping her up at night, so I’ll wait until she gets some sleep before telling her what awaits her on TS…she’ll get to enjoy it more!

If her children are anything like mine were, you could be waiting several years!

All the best,
Sarah

Post by **Anne H** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 4:18 am

Hi again Sarah,

Sometimes the switch sticks, like aks>ask. This last was one of my favorite examples to give in class, since it is one that people often use to disparage people who speak certain dialects that are looked down upon in the U.S. In fact, aks is the earlier form (from Old English aksian/ahsian/axian) and ask is the dialectal metathesis

Reminds me of my earlier days in the U.S. when I worked in an attorney’s office in Jersey City. We had a student come in to do the filing…lovely girl, but drove me crazy every time she said “aks” …I finally gave up trying to get her to say “ASK”…she did try, but kept going back to ‘AKS”.

There are a few trees in the Ancestry World Tree Project with a family of Murrays who came from Scotland to Canada. There is an Angus born 1874 and an Effie born 1876. If they immigrated between those two births, Angus and Effie could be brother and sister…….

I’ll probably check this out at some point down the line…you never know, I might get a pleasant surprise.

……You wouldn't be wanting to spend your summer in the Rocky Mountains, by any chance? I recommend a trip to Yellowstone with a stop at the Anaconda (or Dillon, if they divorced in Beaverhead County) courthouse

I’d love to do that…maybe one day. Too bad the records I need to look at are in Montana and not Minnesota. I might have been able to get some research in at the courthouse while I’m in Minnesota in October.

One thing is for sure, Daniel Scullion/Scullon chose a beautiful area to live and one of these odd days I might just find my way there but, in the meantime, I’d better start putting all this information in my “tree”. I feel as if I’ve been or a roller coaster this past week.

It's been great

Anne

Post by **SarahND** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 5:23 am

Anne H wrote: Too bad the records I need to look at are in Montana and not Minnesota. I might have been able to get some research in at the courthouse while I’m in Minnesota in October.

Well, you never know. Something more may come up! Unfortunately, by October I'll be back in France, or I would show you around. However, if you do find you have things you want to look up when you're there, just give a shout and I'll be glad to tell you what I know about how things are organized in the library and archives and save you some time.
Do post if any more info surfaces!
All the best,
Sarah

Post by **Anne H** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:23 am

Hi Sarah,

Well, you never know. Something more may come up! Unfortunately, by October I'll be back in France, or I would show you around. However, if you do find you have things you want to look up when you're there, just give a shout and I'll be glad to tell you what I know about how things are organized in the library and archives and save you some time.
Do post if any more info surfaces!

Thanks Sarah…you have been invaluable! I’ll be sure to let you know if anything transpires.

Anne