8 Elgin Villas, Shawlands - is this it?.....

[LesleyB]

Also, forgot to post this earlier:
http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... p?pos=-335

Shows what was Elgin Cottage, was at sometime also possibly known as 1 Elgin Villas and is now 1331 Pollockshaws Road, which would seem to agree with what was said in "A Guide to Glasgow Addresses" Pt2, 1826 - 1950 by Susan Miller: Elgin Villas was renamed 1331 and above Pollokshaws Road

Best wishes
Lesley

[Jack]

Hi Andrew and Lesley,

I'd taken a note to check the PO Directories, but wasn't really thinking of maps as the area is a fair bit outside central Glasgow (another note now taken!).
The Mitchell does have many good large scale maps of the Glasgow area - hope they also have them for Shawlands too.

Will let you know what turns up. Jack
ps, could Carey Place have been the narrow lane running beside Sweet Hope Cottage?
Tijuca Cottage & the large Semi-detached next to Sweet Hope not yet built in 1871?

[LesleyB]

Andrew & Jack
Thanks for the input - its much appreciated. I'm still mulling over this one. It would be good to have them "sorted" for 1871 - as you are no doubt aware (especially Jack!) some members of this family are more than elusive so to be able to pin them down and be able to say "this was the house" with a feeling of certainty would be a really good feeling.

Its funny how these things become important - to see a house or street and know that what you are seeing is also what "your" eyes saw in a time now long since gone is a pretty amazing feeling, and one that never ceases to move me.

Best wishes
Lesley

[Jean Jeanie]

Its funny how these things become important - to see a house or street and know that what you are seeing is also what "your" eyes saw in a time now long since gone is a pretty amazing feeling, and one that never ceases to move me.

Best wishes
Lesley

Lesley

I know what you mean. We travelled to Morayshire earlier this year on a fact finding mission armed with an O.S. map of the area (thank goodness)
There were no sign posts to the place we were seeking. We drove up unmade roads and paths and found these few cottages. No sign post to say where we were, only the map indicating we were in the correct area.

Got out the car, snow over our ankles, and my husband walked over to a gate leading up to one of the cottages. In large writing on the gate was "Faebuie Cottage". His ancestors lived there from 1841 - the early 1900's

We were like 2 daft kids....dancing around in the snow.

Many photos were taken and the present occupants invited us in and gave us tea and cake. So now we even know what the inside is like.

Jean

[Jack]

Hi Lesley,
I think you have it right on your 2nd map - 8 then 7 Elgin Villas are next to Largo Villa (aka 6 Elgin Villas). Just a wee niggly bit to iron out!
The 1892 map shows 2 large semi-villas between Largo Villa & Eltham House (ie 4 homes),
But on 1891 census between Largo & Eltham there are only 3 homes (8 Elgin, Adelaide, Ayrdale)
There was no 7 Elgin Villas; was it combined with 8 to make one large villa? Got my doubts, but you've seen them; still semi-villas?
Or just vacant?, the enumerator not mentioning this on the page?

So i'll need a look at 1901, and some other PO Directories too - these aren't getting out as far as that even by the mid 1880s.
Maps for the area aren't too numerous (esp. large scale) - will have a closer look at what they have.
====
In 1871 cens it was Barrhead Rd, but 1881 cens onwards as Pollokshaws Rd.
Each Enumerator took a different route for the census years of 1871, 1881, & 1891.
But none of them actually wrote down their itinerary - we can only go by the order of the homes listed on the pages.

1871 - enumerator went along Shawhill Rd from Sylvan Cottage to Laurelbank Villa, then returned back along Shawhill Rd
to the corner of Barrhead Rd, turned left going in a NW direction to the 1st house, ie 1 Elgin Villas, then onto the last house at no 8.
(No 8 Elgin Villas is the last house in the book)

1 Elgin Villas - 1881 still 1 Elgin Villas - 1891 now 1 Elgin Cottage
2 Elgin Villas - 1881 still 2 Elgin Villas - 1891 now 2 Elgin Cottage
3 Elgin Villas - 1881 now Haggs View - 1891 same
4 Elgin Villas - 1881 now Minaville - 1891 same
5 Elgin Villas - 1881 now Ferndean - 1891 same
6 Elgin Villas - 1881 now Largo Villa - 1891 same
7 Elgin Villas - 1881 same - 1891 same?
8 Elgin Villas - 1881 same - 1891 same
====
1881 - enumerator again went along Shawhill Rd to Laurelbank Villa, then Manse Villa & Cookston Villa
(these 2 were possibly on Shawhill Rd - what i wrongly thought might be 7 & 8 Elgin? See 1891 below)
(though there is that large single house with no name just at the corner which might be either of them if it had been built by 1881)
But he then turned North onto Pollokshaws Rd (maybe up Pollok Rd? which was probably not long built),
he then went SE down Pollokshaws Rd - starting at 8 Elgin Villas and finishing at 1 Elgin Villas.

8 Elgin Villas
7 Elgin Villas
Largo Villa
Ferndean
Minaville
Haggs View
2 Elgin Villas
1 Elgin Villas
====
1891 - enumerator started on Pollokshaws Rd at 1 Elgin Cottages, went NW to Eltham House,
then South to Manse Villa, which is on Shawhill Rd?
(my reasoning for this being that Manse Villa came before Largo Villa Stables - the building at the bottom of the garden?)
then Laurelbank Villa etc back to Sylvan Cottage at Pollokshaws Rd.

1 Elgin Cottage
2 Elgin Cottage
Haggs View
Minaville
Ferndean
Largo Villa
8 Elgin Villas
Adelaide Villa
Ayrdale Villa
Eltham House
-- then,
(no Cookston Villa mentioned)
Manse Villa
Largo Villa Stables
Laurelbank Villa etc
====
The Mitchell was only open until 12.30 today, so it was a bit of a rush. If you see something wrong or not just right, then please do say!
Jack

[LesleyB]

Hi Jack
Thanks so much for looking into this. I'll need to have a closer look at your findings to take it all in. The 1891 sequence seems at odds with what we thought we knew...However, here are the pics I took yesterday (the 2 large semi-villas between Largo Villa & Eltham House)

what might have been nos. 7/8? (next door to Largo Villa)
http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... p?pos=-338
- judging by the paintwork on this one I'd say they look as if the house is still semi detached - those bay windows look like they are different colours.

...and what might have been no.8, now the surgery
http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... p?pos=-337
which looks a bit more like it has been one house, somehow. Its the central front door...

Best wishes
Lesley

[Jack]

Hi Lesley,
The Glasgow PO Directories don't include that part of Pollokshaws Rd till 1890-91, which usefully mentions 7 Elgin Villas.
So that at least accounts for it being "missing" from the 1891 census.
The 1901 census was a bit of a mess (but easy enough to read).
The enumerator's itinerary was near enough a complete reversal of the route according to the pages written (and a bitty inconsistant too!)
Was he just absent-minded or what...?
======
--1871 -- All Elgin Villas
1 - John Anderson
2 - John Lang
3 - Eliza Branford
4 - John Guy
5 - Jas Harrington
6 - Alex Hogg
7 - Wm Suttie & Jas McDonald
8 - Daniel McNicol & Fred Dietrichsen
======
--1881 -- Barrhead Rd
1 Elgin Villas - John Anderson
2 Elgin Villas - Jane Lang
Haggs View - Alex Binnie
Minaville - Jas W Cameron
Ferndean - Wm Ferrier
Largo Villa - Alex Hogg
7 Elgin Villas - Alex Bryson
8 Elgin Villas - W P Faulds
======
-- 1891 -- Pollokshaws Rd
1 Elgin Cottage - Barbara Anderson
2 Elgin Cottage - Jane Lang
Haggs View - Wm Reid
Minaville - Jas W Cameron
Ferndean - Ann Cooper
Largo Villa - Agnes Hogg
7 was missing [but 1890-91 PO Directory has Jas Honeyman at No 7]
8 Elgin Villas - Ann Faulds
-next
Adelaide - Wm Dickie
Ayrdale - Thos Ross
Eltham House - Michael McKenzie
======
-- 1901 - Pollokshaws Rd
1313 - Jane Copland [another of the same No below]
1295 - John Boyle
1283 - Hugh McCabe
1313 - Wm Gillies [possibly there ARE 2 families at the same No, but why didn't he list them with the other 1313?]
-next
1331 - Thos Brownlie
1339 - Wm Maison
1349 - Geo Reid [Wm Reid at 1351 in 1901 PO Dir]
1353 - Jas W Cameron
1365 - not in this place on census, but after 1419 - see below [but here with A.S. Cooper in 1901 PO Dir]
1389 - Alex Martin [as 1389 Largo in 1901 PO Dir]
1395 - Jas Honeyman
1401 - Colin Houston [Mrs WP Faulds in 1901 PO Dir]
-next
1407 - Wm Dickie
1413 - Thos Ross
1419 - Janet McKenzie
-next
1365 - Eliz Milligan [this is where it is on the census page... had he forgotten to call after visiting 1353?]
=====
So i still think you've got it right - 8 Elgin Villas is the house NEXT DOOR to the surgery [which would be Adelaide & Ayrdale]
The surgery looks like it's always been one household, but the downstairs windows are a different design.
I know houses are built with 2 different styles of windows on either side of the front door, but usually only one juts out as a bay window.
Jack
ps. next time you're in the area just knock on some doors and ask to see their title deeds!

[LesleyB]

Jack
You are quite, quite wonderful, but then I'm sure you have been told that many times before!

Thank you so much for looking up all that information on my behalf. I also owe a big thank you to Mrs Faulds for "staying put" between 1891 & 1901!! Thank you, Mrs WP Faulds!! =D>

Here, then, is 8 Elgin Villas (aka 1401 Pollokshaws Rd):
http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... p?pos=-350
(taken on 29th December with the others - on the grounds that you never know what is going to turn out to be most relevant!)

next time you're in the area just knock on some doors and ask to see their title deeds!

Yeah, right - I'm sure that would be popular!! A quick email to "Registers of Scotland" should provide the relevant documentation. The family moved there between 1863 and February 1866, so it shouldn't be that difficult to trace. I 'spose I could have tried this earlier, but then I still wouldn't know where it was, just that it was "8 Elgin Villas" which I knew already....

I really appreciate all your help with this one, Jack.
Yay-hey!!
Best wishes
Lesley

later: I've just remembered - I had problems taking the photo 'cos there was a big "for sale" sign outside - $ wonder if I could arrange a look around.....

[halldubbin]

hello, my family were recorded living in manse villa death of john brown and his wife isabella brown ms forrester was at laurelbank place, shawlands for a long time and died there. any info? xx

[Currie]

Hello Halldubbin, and Welcome to TalkingScot.

I’m not sure what you’re looking for, but here are some newspaper advertisements where Mrs. Brown gets a mention.

Glasgow Herald, Tuesday, February 8, 1881
SHAWLANDS. —To let, at Laurel Bank Place, Four Room and Kitchen House; cheap. – Apply to Mrs. Brown there.

Glasgow Herald, Thursday, February 10, 1881
SHAWLANDS.—To let, the Manse Villa, 8 apartments; rent moderate. —Apply to Mrs. Brown, Laurel Bank Place.

Glasgow Herald, Wednesday, March 30, 1881
SHAWLANDS. —To let, at Laurel Bank Place, a splendid Three Room and Kitchen House. – Apply to Mrs. Brown.
SHAWLANDS. —To let, at Laurel Bank Place, excellent Family House of eight apartments. – Apply to Mrs. Brown.

All the best,
Alan