Granny shoved aff bus?.....

[DavidWW]

.....snipped * that's what I think it says.

Sally

Shown on the SP index as "28"

David

[LesleyB]

Hi David
23 would fit better with her age in the 1881 of 2yrs old.
28 seems a bit old. But I've not seen the image - I gather it is not clear from what has been said.

Best wishes
Lesley

[AndrewP]

I shouldn't have put a link to the image - here is my best attempt at a transcription.


Patrick Gibbons Head Mar 36 Hammerman Lanarkshire Glasgow
Helen D° Wife Mar 31 looks like Midlothian scored out ?
Catherine D° Dau 8mo Lanarkshire Glasgow
Edward D* Son 2
John Hamilton Stepson 8 Scholar D°
George D° D° 11 D° D°
William D° D° 13 D° D°

Next House

John Kelly Head Mar 55 Hawker Ireland
Catherine D° Wife Mar 54 D°
Elizabeth D° Dau S 23 * TobaccoWorker Lanarkshire Glasgow
Catherine D° Dau S 25 FurWorker D°
Helen Hamilton Granddau 6 Scholar D°


* that's what I think it says.

Sally

Hi Sally,

Here is my interpretation of the certificate.

Patrick Gibbons Head Mar 36 Hammerman Lanarkshire Glasgow
Helen D° Wife Mar 31 Midlothian Edinburgh
Catherine D° Dau 8mo Lanarkshire Glasgow
Edward D° Son 2
John Hamilton Stepson 8 Scholar D°
George D° D° 11 D° D°
William D° D° 13 D° D°

Next House

John Kelly Head Mar 55 Hawker Ireland
Catherine D° Wife Mar 54 D°
Elizabeth D° Dau S 28 TobaccoWorker Lanarkshire Glasgow
Catherine D° Dau S 25 FurWorker D°
Helen Hamilton Granddau 6 Scholar D°

All non-Lanarkshire birthplaces are scored through. This is almost certainly the enuerator doing so to count the "out of the county" births which would then be totalled into the summary pages of that census enumeration book. That is much the same reason as the ages are scored through as they have been counted.

When you see an original census books that in New Register House, you find that the scoring out is in coloured pencil that you can read the underlying information easily. Unfortunately the microfilming and subsequent digital imaging is in black and white, so these coloured scorings become black over the writing which also shows as black. Hence the difficulty to read these parts ofthe certificate.

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

[grannysrock]

Lesley - there are several lines drawn on the image , whicjh make it hard , but looking at the other 3's and 8's , I' d say 3 . the enumerator doesn't close his 8's on the top right corner , whereas that is not the case here.

As David has told us , SP has indexed it as 28 , so anyone wishing to take a peek should have less trouble finding it . Here is the GROS data
644/11 048/11 014 ( HUTCHESONTOWN )

Her birth isn't on the IGI it would appear, so makes post 1875 more likely ( but I do know that not all 1870 - 1875 births are on the IGI ..) .

Eek.. I hope all this is of use to Tusker or Paddyscar in some shape or form !

I'm having fun trying anyway .

Sally

[Tusker]

WOW!!!! What can I say????...... I feel guilty that I actually had the cheek to go to bed last night, while the nightshift crew took over the hunt for my Granny Kelly. I must say I'm really very grateful though -- and absolutely astounded by the effort put forth by everyone. Thanks again, to all!

I'm just out of bed and haven't even had my morning cuppa yet, but I've read through the nightshift's posts and I have a few comments to add. Playing the Devil's Advocate as it were.......

Grannysrock (Mine doesn't! She's a contrary auld.....But we'll leave that for now...) Re: Your find -- Eliz at 28 or 23, living with her parents.

Point # 1 - Wouldn't the age of 23 be more likely, simply because if she was claiming to be 18 when she married my Granda three months later, I think he might have noticed the difference between a 28-year-old and an 18-year-old? If she was 23, she may have been able to fib about her age to make her "more desirable" to my 20-year-old Granda, but fib about TEN years and get away with it? I don't think so, myself -- but all things are possible. Let's plump for the squiggly number written on the census as a "3" rather than an "8", for the moment, and keep in mind that ages on censuses are usually nothing better than "best guesses".

Point # 2 - There's no Granny's SISTER Ellen with the family. Had Ellen died young (or married and moved out)? I don't think she'd come along as a Bundle of Joy after 1901, given the ages of the parents.

Point # 3 - The Gibbons family is a completely new wrinkle to me, But if 31-year-old Mrs Gibbons first name was Ellen, and there was a stepson named John Hamilton, aged 8, (named after Mrs Gibbons' Dad possibly?) in her 2nd hubbie's household, it seems likely that she'd previously married a Mr Hamilton at somewhere around age 23 or earlier. No? She was 31 at the time of the census and Liz was 23(?) so, she'd have been Liz's older sister by about 8 years.

Lesley -- No, I'm afraid I don't have Granny's death certificate as she died in Oct. 1959, in Mearnskirk Hospital apparently.
SP only allows investigation of births up to 1955 at the moment. And the "Catherine Boyle" name was given to me verbally by my elderly uncle a few years before he passed away. He could have course have been thinking to himself "I know it was an IRISH name.....What WAS it now? I can't quite remember." -- and simply to please me he gave it his best shot with "Boyle". I don't have any certificates or any other corroborating evidence whatsoever that Catherine's name WAS Boyle.

Annette M -- Fear not! The wally close or bestselling book (winner's choice) has not been e-mailed out yet -- nor has the photo of the Caramel Wafer!......So you're still in there with a shout!

My apologies for this very lengthy post......But what's the general consensus. Are paddyscar and I distantly related or what? If so, am I her great-great Granny's nephew, or her great uncle three times removed, or what?

[Tusker]

Whoops! Sorry! I forgot to thank AndrewP too, for his efforts in clarifying the SP entry. Thanks, Andrew! (And everyone else, again!)

By the way, if this *ISN'T* my Granny -- I hope she steps IN FRONT of the darn bus when I'm driving it!!!!!!

[LesleyB]

Hi Tusker
I'm confused now.

I don't have any certificates or any other corroborating evidence whatsoever that Catherine's name WAS Boyle.

I thought we were working from the 1901 marriage of Catherine Kelly and James Adam (File cutter) both of 181 South Wellington Street which I have download from SP and which states her father John Kelly, a commercial traveller & that Elizabeth Kelly's mother Catherine's maiden surname was Boyle.

I do begin to doubt it really was Boyle given some of the information which has been posted here since, but that is my opinion....not what is stated in black and white on the marriage entry!

There's no Granny's SISTER Ellen with the family. Had Ellen died young (or married and moved out)? I don't think she'd come along as a Bundle of Joy after 1901, given the ages of the parents.

It looks like Ellen/Helen married Mr Gibbons in 1899 and is living next door in 1901 as Sally (grannysrock) mentioned:
1899 GIBBONS PATRICK KELLY ELLEN HUTCHESONTOWN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/11 0060

Best wishes
Lesley

[LesleyB]

Looking back at the 1881, if Ellen/Helen is of this family and she married Mr Gibbons and is in the 1901 as born Midlothian (which fits) aged 31 - where is she in 1881? Its beginning to sound like "The Waltons", but could she be Mary here? Mary-Ellen?? I may be well off-track here but just "thinking aloud" as it were... or was Ellen/Helen a further child who is not metioned here because she is off at her granny's house or a friends house or a place of work for the night ? Or could Mary be a transcription error?

• Dwelling: 376 Cumberland St
  Census Place: Govan, Lanark, Scotland
  Source: FHL Film 0203671 GRO Ref Volume 644-11 EnumDist 58 Page 22
  Marr Age Sex Birthplace
  John KELLY M 36 M Ireland
  Rel: Head
  Occ: Hawker
  Catherine KELLY M 33 F Ireland
  Rel: Wife
  Mary KELLY 12 F Edinburgh, Edinburgh, Scotland
  Rel: Daur
  Occ: Scholar
  John KELLY 10 M Edinburgh, Edinburgh, Scotland
  Rel: Son
  Occ: Scholar
  Catherine KELLY 6 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
  Rel: Daur
  Occ: Scholar
  Elizabeth KELLY 2 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
  Rel: Daur

Best wishes
Lesley

[Jack]

Hi folks,
I'd a look at the original page earlier today, and i'm 99% sure Elizabeth's age is as 23.
Jack
ps, no other Kellys at 181.
pps, Helen Gibbons 31 was as born Edinburgh, MLN (Lanarkshire had been scored thru).

[nelmit]

STOP THE BUS!!!!

Crack the Tunnocks!!!

She is the daughter of John and Catherine Reilly.

That is 100% correct from the poorhouse apps.

I'll be back later with details (my real life nephews have just descended upon me).

Jack - must have just missed you yet again. Yes they are the only Kelly's and her age says 23

Be back later.

Annette M