Helen Cheyne born Kintore 1886 ** birthday bumped post **

Looking for Scottish Ancestors

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SarahND
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Post by SarahND » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:49 pm

AnneM wrote: Pardon my nosiness but how did a farm servant from Auchterless get to London?
Hi Anne,
There seems to have been a real exodus of farm servants from Aberdeen to London around that time :lol: See also: http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12161 for two who left Aberdour for the same destination!

:lol:
Sarah

Susan
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Post by Susan » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:13 pm

Christina #1 and William Cooper are in Aberdeen in 1901 - which comes back to Ian's info about relatives in Aberdeen - an aunt Maggie Simpson in particular, though not had any luck along those lines yet.

1901
272 Union Grove, Aberdeen

Wm Cooper, 40, Head, Ellon, Aberdeenshire, Carter
Christina Cooper, 45, Wife, Auchterlees, Aberdeenshire
Jane Cooper, 19, Daughter, Auchterlees, Aberdeenshire, Domestic Serv
James Cooper, 12, Son, Turriff, Aberdeenshire, Scholar
Wm Cooper, 10, Son, Echt, Aberdeenshire, Scholar
Agnes F Cooper, 2, Daughter, Dunecht, Aberdeenshire

Jane Cooper is actually William's step-daughter born in 1881 in Auchterlees as Jane Simpson.

Susan.

SarahND
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Post by SarahND » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:06 am

AnneM wrote: Christina 1 gets married on 2nd June 1888 to William Cooper. Funnily enough her brother William gets married on the same day.
He doesn't by any chance marry a Margaret/Maggie, does he? No, I see it looks from the census as if he married a Jane.

We have several choices for Aunt Maggie. If she was married, then she could have married Christina #1's brothers William, James, John or Alexander

Or, she could have married Christina #2's brothers Theodore, James or John

Here's the 1851 census showing the brothers of Christina #1 who had left home by 1861:

1851
Invertherny, Auchterless, Aberdeenshire
John Simpson, 36, Head, born Forgue, Aberdeenshire. Wright
Jane Simpson, 30, Wife, born Auchterless, Aberdeenshire
William Simpson, 14, Son, born Turriff, Aberdeenshire, Scholar
James Simpson, 11, Son, born Turriff, Aberdeenshire, Scholar
John Simpson, 9, Son, born Auchterless, Aberdeenshire, Scholar
Elisabeth Simpson, 8, Daughter, born Auchterless, Aberdeenshire, Scholar
Helen Simpson, 5, Daughter, born Auchterless, Aberdeenshire
Jane Simpson, 3, Daughter, born Auchterless, Aberdeenshire
Christian Simpson, 3 Mo, Daughter, born Auchterless, Aberdeenshire
Alexander Hendry, 20, Apprentice, born Auchterless, Aberdeenshire, Wright App

Can't find anyone in the Christina #2 family in 1871 to see if there were more sons. I can only find Christina herself as a servant in Auchterless.

No time to look further at the moment.
Cheers,
Sarah

imlincs
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Post by imlincs » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:16 pm

Hello Lesley (and Anne, Susan and Sarah)

Following your suggestion I have received a clearer copy of Helen's birth certificate from SP (thank you SP!) and am just about to upload it.

It appears to confirm your suggestion of Cottown (or Cotton).

There was a Simpson family in Cottown in 1881 headed by William 48 also , like James and John , born in Forgue so clearly links to be made.

I haven't yet had time to assimilate fully the information about Christinas 1 and 2 posted by Anne, Susan and Sarah but will come back when I have.

As to how and why Nellie was sent to England, I don't know. As far as I remember she told me only that she travelled by train and was met at a station and taken by horse and cart to her new place of employment in Medmenham Abbey, Buckinghamshire very early in the 20th C. I don't know whether she was accompanied on the train journey - you'd think she would have to have been. I recall her saying it was the year Q Victoria died but that does not seem possible because she must surely be the Nellie Cheyne in Easter Logie Aulton in 1901. Her or my memory playing tricks perhaps. She always spoke of coming from Rothienorman, but Easter Logie Aulton could just about qualify as Rothienorman, couldn't it?. I have been unable to trace any other link to Rothienorman. (but as you have amply demonstarted to me I could have been looking in the wrong place!)

The Nellie Cheyne who married in Wandsworth in 1915 is definitely the same as the Helen Cheyne born in Kintore. I have always known my grandmother's birthday as June 26th and the marriage in Wandsworth was definitely that of my grandmother.

Ian
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AnneM
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Post by AnneM » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:55 pm

Hi Ian

She could have moved later in the year, after the census was taken. Poor wee girl. She must have been very overwhelmed moving from rural Aberdeenshire to the South of England.

BTW I reckon you may well have the correct James Cheyne. I think the most likely reason that he did not confess his true employment on the BC would be that he was afraid of getting into some kind of bother with his employers. Perhaps he was already committed to someone else in Glasgow.

Anne
Anne
Researching M(a)cKenzie, McCammond, McLachlan, Kerr, Assur, Renton, Redpath, Ferguson, Shedden, Also Oswald, Le/assels/Lascelles, Bonning just for starters

AndrewP
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Post by AndrewP » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:16 pm

Hi Ian,

Now that's a lot easier on the eyes than the downloaded version.

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1652

All the best,

AndrewP

LesleyB
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Post by LesleyB » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:33 pm

Hi Ian
Wow! That is much clearer - a great improvement.

Best wishes
Lesley

imlincs
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Post by imlincs » Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:07 pm

Hello again

Here are a few thoughts based on all your suggestions

Christina #1

Born 1851, making her 35 and unmarried when Helen was born in 1886.

In 1881 aged 30 she has a daughter Jane. Is this why she is staying with the Craib family in 1881? Who was the father? (See below).

In September/October1885 she has a fling with a Glasgow policeman 13 years her junior who is visiting his home county at the time and who for some reason nine months later is resident at St John’s Wells claiming to be a farm servant at the time of the birth of Helen in June 1886.

In June 1888, now 37, she marries William Cooper also 8 years her junior. William takes on 7 yr old Jane but not 2 yr old Helen.

In 1891 William (30) and Christina (still aged 37!) are in Echt. It would appear that the father of Jane may have been called Black since the 9 yr old Jane Simpson/Cooper appears as Jane Black Cooper in 1891.

Christina #1 and William Cooper are in Aberdeen in 1901
– Christina Cooper’s age is given as 45 – getting younger by the census. William is 40.

Nothing here about Christina #2 after 1861.

This sequence of events to me doesn’t have the ring of truth about it.


Possibly slightly more plausible is that the 1901 Mrs Cooper is actually Christina #2 which rejigs the above sequence to:


Christina #1

Born 1851, making her 35 and unmarried when Helen was born in 1886.

In September/October 1885 she has a fling with a Glasgow policeman 13 years her junior who is visiting his home county at the time and who for some reason nine months later is resident at St John’s Wells claiming to be a farm servant at the time of the birth of Helen in June 1886.

Where does she go after that?


Christina #2
In 1881 aged 27 she has a daughter Jane Simpson. Who was the father? (See below). In June 1888 she marries William Cooper 6 or 7 years her junior.

In 1891 William (30) and Christina (37) are in Echt. It would appear that the father of Jane may have been called Black since the 9 yr old Jane Simpson/Cooper appears as Jane Black Cooper in 1891.


Christina #2 and William Cooper are in Aberdeen in 1901 – Christina Cooper’s age this time is given as 45. William is 40. Children’s ages compatible with 1891.



I can’t at the moment see any obvious link between Christinas #1 or #2 and Helen Cheyne. Perhaps the Cottown/Forgue connection will help.

Maybe I need to invest in a few more birth and marriage certificates but I’d like to pin down which are the most likely before forking out a lot of money on blind alleys.

Is the only reason that you have all rejected my original Christina that paternity of a child born to a 14 yr old would not be admitted? (and I suppose because you don’t think whichever Christina it was lived at St John’s wells in 1886) - I’m sure there’s a detective novel in here somewhere!

I’m working on the Ramsay/Kintore, Simpson/Cottown, Forgue and Auchterless connections at the moment. Phew!

Ian
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imlincs
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Post by imlincs » Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:15 pm

Hello Lesley

Why haven't my "bold" tags worked?

(I just know the answer to this is going to make me look stupid!)

Ian
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AnneM
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Post by AnneM » Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:43 pm

Hi Ian

It is Christina 1 who marries William Cooper and she is consistently economical with the truth about her age. Her marriage certificate says she is 32! She is the daughter of John Simpson and Jane Sandison.

I agree that James Cheyne is a man of mystery and it is difficult to explain why he would have been in Glasgow and Aberdeen in quick succession, not to mention lying about his employment. Another James Cheyne is not easily found.

Anne
Anne
Researching M(a)cKenzie, McCammond, McLachlan, Kerr, Assur, Renton, Redpath, Ferguson, Shedden, Also Oswald, Le/assels/Lascelles, Bonning just for starters

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