Kirkwood's from Dalmellington.....

[Bob Haining]

I'm hoping to make contact with some descendants of my grandfather's siblings. My Grandfather is John Robertson Kirkwood, b. Apr 25, 1878 in Dalmellington. He emigrated to the west coast of Canada in 1912 with his 3 young children (my Mother and her 2 brothers).
His siblings;
Margaret Robertson, b. Feb 10, 1868, born in Catrine.
Jane Bell Kirkwood, b. Dec 12, 1874
William McBride Kirkwood, b. July 23, 1880
Thomas Kirkwood, b. Apr 13, 1884
Robert Caldwell Kirkwood, b. July 28, 1892. All born in Dalmellington.
In the 1891 census, there is a David Kirkwood listed, age 7, but that would have him born
in 1884 when Thomas was born, unable to find a birth cert. for David.
Their parents were, Thomas Ferguson Kirkwood and Elizabeth Robertson.
My Mother used to write to an "Uncle Tommy" and "Aunt Peggy" Kirkwood on
Dumbarton Road, Duntocher, Dumbartonshire. They had a Daughter, Margaret (possible married name of Alston).

The above had been posted on GenForum, I received the following from Fiona Swainston, Margaret's daughter, (but her e-mail address was "hidden");
"My grandparents were Tommy and Peggy Kirkwood who lived in Dumbarton Road, Duntocher. My mother is their daughter Margaret who lives in Glasgow.
She has mentioned a Marion Haining who once came to visit her parents from Canada."

Marion Haining is my late sister.

I know that David emigrated to Australia and Robert to the U.S.A. but don't know anything about William or the 2 sisters. Any help would be appreciated.

I hope this information is familiar to someone out there.

[DavidWW]

Bob

I do like a puzzle in the morning to get my genealogical brain in gear but this one defeats me in terms of young David KIRKWOOD. Not only does he turn up a “Son, b Dalmellington” in the 1891 census, but also in the 1901 census, but now only aged 12; and, given that difference in ages, - are these the same person?…….

There is/are no matching birth record(s), not only in Dalmellington, but elsewhere.

To locate the 1901 census entry on scotlandspeople.gov.uk, look for others in the household of an appropriate age, and you will easily find them in a parish which lies just to the north of Dalmellington.

There are two possibilities, - a mistake in the indexes, - or born illegitimate to a son of Thomas and Elizabeth, and registered under the mother’s surname only, and then effectively adopted by his grandparents. All those middle initials make me lean towards the latter possibility.

When David later married in Dalmellington, - the only possible match if you search on an appropriate range of dates, - he gives his parents as Thomas and Elizabeth …….. so was he brought up to believe that his grandparents were his parents? ………..

The 1901 census will also lead you to the marriage of Jane (Jeanie) and two children in the same household. It’s unclear if it’s a mark on the film or an erasure on the original enumeration book, but it may be the case that her husband was shown as the “Guid Son” of Thomas, a guid old Ayrshire and Scots term for son-in-law!

The 1891 census entry also includes a couple of grandchildren, Elizabeth C ROBERTSON, and Archibald ROBERTSON. On the birth register entry for one of these there is reference to an RCE entry dealing with paternity ……………. Hopefully, some time in the next few months, or at least during 2005, linked digitised images of these RCE entries will come on line at SP.

They are “on-line” at NRH, but only on a test basis for NRH staff, not researchers, - I’ve been privileged to see a few. There is a problem to overcome before they come on line. There can often be a period of some years, even decades, between the original record and the RCE entry. If the registration district reference number has changed in the meantime, this is not easy to sort out, as there are no computerised lookup tables in existence dealing with such situations! Just another example of unexpected difficulties that only come up once such a project is under way!

As a ScotlandsPeople User Group member my reaction is that the records should be put on line as they are, even if there are still such occasional RD number change situations still to be resolved, as long as there is an explanation of that potential problem.

You may note that the “missing” years’ marriage images were recently added after the power outage problem at SoL’s Dundee site, - partly, I would like to think, due to consistent advice from the SPUG to the effect that it was better to put these images on-line but with a qualification that the images in some, but only some, images in certain RDs might be difficult, perhaps impossible, to read.

Also in the 1891 census is a niece of the Head of Household, Susan R KIRKWOOD, born Aberdeenshire, but there is no trace under that name, with or without the middle initial…………

William KIRKWOOD also married in Dalmellington, - again easy to find by setting a range of search years appropriate to his age, but be warned, he married quite young for that time!

Elizabeth C(rosbie) ROBERTSON’s marriage register entry is very easy to find, given the middle name, but gives no info on her father, - but see reference to the RCE above !

But of Margaret Robertson KIRKWOOD nary a trace either with or without the middle name in terms of a marriage anywhere, with the middle name, or in Ayrshire without; or of a death with the middle name. There are too many without the middle name to check effectively on-line. And that includes searching on the basis of Ma*g* which picks up both Margaret and Maggie, but doesn’t get complicated by other “M” names such as the very frequently occurring Mary. But I didn’t search on the basis of Peggy or other variants ……….

Did she perhaps emigrate along with Robert ?

The link to Thomas and Peggy may not be a simple as it first appears ………….

The Thomas (Ferguson) KIRKWOOD born in 1884 died in infancy in Dalmellington ……….

The Thomas involved in this case is the Thomas Anderson KIRKWOOD born illegitimately to Jane, - see the grandson in the 1901 census entry, - who later married Margaret Wilson ARMOUR !!

What a fascinating pair of census entries !!!……….. has to be a case study for my advanced students. Maybe one of them will solve the situation in terms of the birth of David!!

From the various above records it should be a straightforward process to trace forward to other possible living relatives in Scotland. The key is to get the male lines past WWI, and then get forward to the possibility of 1936 and later births where the mother’s maiden name is recorded.

In addition, the fact that 1976 and later death indexes also give the mother’s maiden name is also a very powerful tool for searching forward to living relatives in Scotland.

In fact, given appropriately dated births, it can often be a very effective shortcut to try direct for matching 1976 and later deaths, but this is only possible on a visit to New Register House in Edinburgh………..

Be aware also that it’s not everyone who understands or appreciates the interest of distant cousins contacting them. In all the forward tracing that I’ve done for clients over the years, there have only ever been one or two situations where I didn’t successfully trace forward to records in the last 10 or 15 years, but there have been a few instances of no reply to letters, and denial of any link when contact was made by telephone, - which leads me to advise against telephone contact, and go for the smail option instead. It might take a bit longer, but can be worthwhile the wait, especially if elderly people are involved who may react negatively against an out-of-the-blue telephone contact…………

Orraverybest

Davie

[Bob Haining]

Big Wullie (Davie);

WOW!!! Thank-you!! So much information, it will take me a month of Sundays to decipher all of it.

I fell into the trap of "assuming" I'd found the correct "Thomas", thanks for setting me straight. But you have started me on the way to make a break through this wall that has been in front of me for months. Again I'd "assumed" the Kirkwood part of my tree would be the easiest because of having an address and a number of names and birth-dates to start from. How wrong on my part.

If I'm successful in contacting Margaret (nee Kirkwood) and/or her daughter Fiona, I'll be well on my way to completely busting through this brick wall.

From the West (WET) coast of Canada,

[Montrose Budie]

Big Wullie (Davie);

WOW!!! Thank-you!! So much information, it will take me a month of Sundays to decipher all of it.

Nae prob!

I fell into the trap of "assuming" I'd found the correct "Thomas", thanks for setting me straight. But you have started me on the way to make a break through this wall that has been in front of me for months. Again I'd "assumed" the Kirkwood part of my tree would be the easiest because of having an address and a number of names and birth-dates to start from. How wrong on my part.

The more I got into it the more I became fascinated about what was coming out.

Shouldn't take you more than 3, maybe 4 x £6 on scoltandspeople.gov.uk with the clues that you now have!

If you get stuck, shout !

And it'll be a great case study for my advanced students, especially those who start to think that they know it all !

Orraverybest

Davie

PS Come 'n' jine the pairty .........
dww

[Bob Haining]

Och aye Davie,

I now know where my next pension cheque will be spent (ScotlandsPeople here I come).

[Linda Malpass]

Och aye Davie,

I now know where my next pension cheque will be spent :roll: (ScotlandsPeople here I come).

Hi Bob, didn't see yah at the party, but it is a little early for us, gotta try those stovies!! If you need help with SP, I don't mind helping with my pension cheque, that's what cousins are for !!!

[Bob Haining]

Big Wullie,

I've finally worked my way through your posting to me and double checked all the information I have collected, that "Brick wall" is crumbling, but not quite down. I think I'll need to find the daughter (Margaret) or the granddaughter (Fiona Swainston) of Thomas Anderson Kirkwood and Margaret Wilson Armour.

I'd had the 1891 Kirkwood census, but looking at David's age it looked like 7, but when I double checked the document on SP (and enlarged it) there is an ink dot making the 1 look like a 7, therefore the 1901 census listing him as 12 and his age on his marriage certificate do jive.

Re your last paragraph about contacting people via telephone, I made that mistake last year. I'd phoned the widow of my Mother's cousin, explained who I was, but I thought I'd run into the iceberg the got the Titanic. I agree, much better results with letters.

Thank-you for all your help,