As he went in & as he came out - where?

Looking for Scottish Ancestors

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arthurk
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Location: Cheshire

As he went in & as he came out - where?

Post by arthurk » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:00 pm

I inherited a photo album from an aunt, but unfortunately there are no names on the photos, and even if there is anyone still alive who could identify them, I am not in touch with them. One page has an intriguing pair of pictures (posted here, with their backs) where someone had pencilled "As he went in" and "As he came out", and I'd be grateful for any ideas as to what this might refer to.
ashewentin.jpg
ashewentin.jpg (42.56 KiB) Viewed 380 times
ashecameout.jpg
ashecameout.jpg (44.27 KiB) Viewed 380 times
The album ultimately came from a family from Paisley, with connections in Glasgow. Possible surnames include MILLAR, WILSON, FERGUSON, BAIRD or possibly MANN. The "In" photo was taken at the studio of William Brown, 6 Gilmour Street, Paisley, and the "Out" one at G. McKenzie of 5 Gilmour Street, Paisley.

From the directories on the National Library of Scotland website it appears that a William Brown was at 6 Gilmour Street from 1865-6 to 1878-9. George McKenzie was at 5 Gilmour Street from the same date until at least 1889-90.

As well as the question of who it is and when it was taken, what might he have been going into and coming out of?

Thanks for any help,

Arthur

(Edited: I've just realised that I originally missed the add attachments option, and posted a link to the photos on an external site. Now that I've changed it, it might look a bit different to anyone who's been here before. :wink: )
Last edited by arthurk on Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kennedy (PER > LKS > ARM > England); Campbell, Rutherford, McDonald, Sinclair (all PER)
Wilson, Millar (RFW & LKS); Duncan (LKS); Hastings (KKD) (all > WRY)

paddyscar
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Re: As he went in & as he came out - where?

Post by paddyscar » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:00 am

Hello Arthurk

I would suggest that he may have gone into military service, or even jail (no slur intended). I do think he looks a little old for going in and out of school; but then many old pictures suggest different ages than current times.

The photographers were at that address for a span of 25 years, but that is far longer than the gap between the two photos. He seems far less stern with the cap, so it might have been a significant event. Does the cap relate to some service?

Just some thoughts,
Frances
John Kelly (b 22 Sep 1897) eldest child of John Kelly & Christina Lipsett Kelly of Glasgow

ninatoo
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Re: As he went in & as he came out - where?

Post by ninatoo » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:49 am

I am wondering about the buttonhole which looks like laurel to me, which symbolises victory.

But....I am also wondering if you are sure it is the same man, because I think the nose and eyes seem to have quite a different shape, as does the hairline near the ear.
Researching: Easton ( Renfrewshire, Dunbarton and Glasgow), Corr (Londonderry and Glasgow), Carson (Co. Down, Irvine, Ayrshire and Glasgow), Logan (Londonderry and Glasgow)

arthurk
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:19 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: As he went in & as he came out - where?

Post by arthurk » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:29 am

Thanks for the replies. I can't be certain that the two photos are of the same person, but the comments in the album strongly suggest that they are.

Some of the MILLAR family were writers (lawyers), so I wondered if it might be some kind of graduation from law school. I'd estimate his age as being early 20s in the first photo, and mid to late 20s in the second, which might fit with a graduation. Alternatively, one of the Millars was Colonel to the 2nd Battalion Renfrewshire Volunteers (see this thread for a bit more on him - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17228&p=138313#p138301) but he was born in 1829, so probably too old to be the subject of these photos, since from the photographer's address, the first one seems to have been taken between about 1865 and 1878.

One thing that I think we can probably discount is that he was in and out of jail. From what I know of the family, this seems a most unlikely possibility, and not one that would have been celebrated in the family album (unless he was a martyr for some worthy cause??).

Arthur
Kennedy (PER > LKS > ARM > England); Campbell, Rutherford, McDonald, Sinclair (all PER)
Wilson, Millar (RFW & LKS); Duncan (LKS); Hastings (KKD) (all > WRY)

Currie
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Re: As he went in & as he came out - where?

Post by Currie » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:02 pm

Hello Arthur,

His beard seems to be starting to go grey in the second photo and maybe that puts him in his 40s. He also seems to have lost a fair bit of hair on top and maybe he needs the headgear for warmth or to make him feel less naked.

Is that a fur trimmed collar, I wonder when they were all the rage?

What are the sizes of the photographs, are they Cabinet or Carte de visite?

I don’t think I’ve seen a photo before with leaves in lapel.

Alan

arthurk
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Location: Cheshire

Re: As he went in & as he came out - where?

Post by arthurk » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:50 pm

The photos are the smaller carte de visite type.

And the leaves - the album has a picture of someone else with leaves in their lapel, though in that one they're more like maple.

Arthur
Kennedy (PER > LKS > ARM > England); Campbell, Rutherford, McDonald, Sinclair (all PER)
Wilson, Millar (RFW & LKS); Duncan (LKS); Hastings (KKD) (all > WRY)

Hibee
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Re: As he went in & as he came out - where?

Post by Hibee » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:04 pm

Hi Arthur

My initial thought was they're not the same person. A close look at the earlobes confirmed my suspicions.

Hibee
www.adams-of-adamsrow.com
Adam(s): Newton, Midlothian
Brock: Orkney/Leith
Bridges: Leith
Sweeney: Ireland/Leith
Brown: Edinburgh/Hamilton

arthurk
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:19 pm
Location: Cheshire

Re: As he went in & as he came out - where?

Post by arthurk » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:41 pm

Thanks for the further replies. As I said before, I don't know for certain that these two photos are of the same person - I'm just going on what was pencilled in the album, and I'm not sure I can see enough of the earlobes to be as definite as Hibee that they are different.

Anyway, rather than spending time on whether they're the same person, I'm more interested in what the second photo indicates (if anything) about the institution or whatever that the man has come out of. Can anything be deduced from what he is wearing, including the leaves in his lapel?

Arthur
Kennedy (PER > LKS > ARM > England); Campbell, Rutherford, McDonald, Sinclair (all PER)
Wilson, Millar (RFW & LKS); Duncan (LKS); Hastings (KKD) (all > WRY)

ninatoo
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Re: As he went in & as he came out - where?

Post by ninatoo » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:57 am

Someone might correct me, but I think the cap is what is known as a Balmoral (you can just see the ribbon hanging at the left side of his neck. I found a description on Wikipedia:

The Balmoral (more fully the Balmoral bonnet in Scottish English or Balmoral cap otherwise, and formerly called the Kilmarnock bonnet) is a traditional Scottish hat that can be worn as part of formal or informal Highland dress. Dating back to at least the 16th century, it takes the form of a knitted, soft wool cap with a flat crown. It is named after Balmoral Castle, a royal residence in Scotland. It is an alternative to the similar and related (informal) Tam o' Shanter cap and the (formal or informal) Glengarry bonnet. Balmoral is widely used as a part of a uniform in army cadets and pipe band. It is also used as an element of formal highland dress.

From tartanauthority,com:
The name 'Balmoral' as applied to this traditional head dress appearsto date from the late 19th century. Today, the crown of the bonnet issmaller, made of finer cloth and tends to be blue or Lovat green. Tapesin the band originally used to secure the bonnet tightly are sometimesworn hanging from the back of the cap. It can have a regimental or clanbadge worn on the left hand side with the bonnet usually worn tilted tothe right to display these emblems. The Balmoral was adapted into theCaubeen by Irish Forces and military forces around the world have wornit and referred to it simply as a 'beret.'

So he was dressed formally, but I doubt it was army or he would have been wearing an emblem on the bonnet. Just my opinion!

Nina
Researching: Easton ( Renfrewshire, Dunbarton and Glasgow), Corr (Londonderry and Glasgow), Carson (Co. Down, Irvine, Ayrshire and Glasgow), Logan (Londonderry and Glasgow)

Russell
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Re: As he went in & as he came out - where?

Post by Russell » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:13 am

HiAll
I wondered whether the lapel leaves might have something to do with one of the now defunct Friendly Societies. there were several like the buffaloes. The Loyal Order of Shepherds and the Ancient Order of Foresters, with the latter being my choice. They often had formal attire like the Masonic Order but used emblems to identify themselves when not in full regalia.
Just a lateral thinking moment :)

Russell
Working on: Oman, Brock, Miller/Millar, in Caithness.
Roan/Rowan, Hastings, Sharp, Lapraik in Ayr & Kirkcudbrightshire.
Johnston, Reside, Lyle all over the place !
McGilvray(spelt 26 different ways)
Watson, Morton, Anderson, Tawse, in Kilrenny

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