Elizabeth Mooney and family (missing records)

[HeWhoDrinksGuinness]

Hi,

My 2nd Great Grandmother Elizabeth Mooney was born in Dundee in 1873 to John Mooney & Mary Scott.

So far, I have been unable to locate a Birth or Baptism record for Elizabeth, nor can I find a Marriage Record for John and Mary.

I have also searched for a Birth and Baptism record for "Elizabeth Scott" in the case her parents were not married at the time of her birth, but I simply cannot find anything.

I have searched ScotlandsPeople, FindMyPast, Ancestry, FamilySearch and also RootsIreland, in case her parents moved to Scotland at some point from Ireland, but have been unsuccessful in finding any records regarding this family.

Last week, I found an 1881 Census in Glasgow from Smyllum Orphanage where a "Lizzie Mooney" was listed as a scholar and who's age matches up nicely with my Elizabeth Mooney. It also listed her birthplace as Dundee so I am 99% sure this is the correct person. The Smyllum Orphanage 1881 Census also lists a John Mooney from Dundee as a scholar there who is 3 years older than Elizabeth, so I am going on the basis that they could be siblings.

I also found Marriage and Death certificates for her sibling John Mooney, but neither of these records list anyone as his parents and the section is left blank. This leads me to believe that Elizabeth somehow discovered her parent's names somewhere between 1895 and 1897, the latter of which being the year she was married. Both of Elizabeth's Marriage and Death records list her parent's names clearly. I am also unable to find her sibling John's birth record.

I also know from Elizabeth's Marriage record in 1897 that her parents were both deceased by the time of her marriage.

Her Father, John Mooney, is listed as having the occupation of "Gardener" on Elizabeth's records, and I recently found an 1891 Census from Cambuslang in Lanark of a John Mooney who is a Gardener. I have no idea if this is Elizabeth's Father or not, but it's all I have to go on. The 1891 Cambuslang Census entry says that John was either 41, 47 or 49 at the time the Census was taken. It's rather difficult to read as his age has been partially crossed out.

As for Mary Scott, I have absolutely no information about her apart from her name. After searching ScotlandsPeople, I did find that a particular "Margaret Scott" in Dundee had a handful of illegitimate children whose surnames were all listed as "Scott" on their birth records. I know these children shared the same mother due to their birth location, date range of their births, and their Mother's listed occupation (Factory Worker). I'm not sure whether "Mary" and "Margaret" are interchangeable, but ultimately I assume not. I may just be clutching at straws.

If you have read this far then I thank you. I would appreciate any pointers or information anyone could provide regarding these people. It's rather frustrating hitting a brick wall after only going back a few generations.

Kind regards,

Andy

[WilmaM]

Hi Andy,
I've been mulling this one over, and sadly not coming up with any answers - only further questions.
1. Who did she marry in 1897? and where

2. Have you found her and/or John from the orphanage in the 1891 census?

3. What significance is the year 1895 that you mention ? "discovered her parent's names somewhere between 1895 and 1897"

Points I noted:
1. there is a member of staff at the orphanage also with that Surname. That could throw a spanner in the works, though she is noted as being born in Ireland.
2. Although we always say the Parent's detail on a marriage are usually correct, in this case [ and in others I've encountered] a woman of uncertain parentage may supply parents' details to make them seem more respectable - often a kernel of truth therein from hearsay etc. The death informant would simply carry these details forward.
3. A lack of birth record for both the orphanage children is very curious, esp. that far into Statutory Registration. I wonder what name they may be hiding under.

As I said there nothing really concrete about this case - other than her existence in your family tree!

[ChipChip]

HeWho* has failed to mention that he has exactly the same thread on RootsChat. He has a few replies. Nothing to stop him doing that but it would have been nice to know.

[HeWhoDrinksGuinness]

Hi Andy,
I've been mulling this one over, and sadly not coming up with any answers - only further questions.
1. Who did she marry in 1897? and where

2. Have you found her and/or John from the orphanage in the 1891 census?

3. What significance is the year 1895 that you mention ? "discovered her parent's names somewhere between 1895 and 1897"

Points I noted:
1. there is a member of staff at the orphanage also with that Surname. That could throw a spanner in the works, though she is noted as being born in Ireland.
2. Although we always say the Parent's detail on a marriage are usually correct, in this case [ and in others I've encountered] a woman of uncertain parentage may supply parents' details to make them seem more respectable - often a kernel of truth therein from hearsay etc. The death informant would simply carry these details forward.
3. A lack of birth record for both the orphanage children is very curious, esp. that far into Statutory Registration. I wonder what name they may be hiding under.

As I said there nothing really concrete about this case - other than her existence in your family tree!

Hi, thanks for your response.

1. Elizabeth Mooney married Thomas Grieve in Bellshill, Lanarkshire in 1897.

2 I have found both Elizabeth and John in the 1891 census only recently actually. They were not living together. Elizabeth was living as a servant in Bellshill, Lanark. John was living with his wife Marion Berry whom he married in 1890 in Hamilton, Lanark.

3. This has confused me too. I will continue to search though

[HeWhoDrinksGuinness]

HeWho* has failed to mention that he has exactly the same thread on RootsChat. He has a few replies. Nothing to stop him doing that but it would have been nice to know.

I posted on RootsChat 2 days after originally posting on here as I had received no responses on here at that time. I thought I'd post on both forums to hopefully get more help with my questions, not to anger the apparent "forum police" for posting on two separate websites.

[WilmaM]

Hi, thanks for your response.

1. Elizabeth Mooney married Thomas Grieve in Bellshill, Lanarkshire in 1897.

2 I have found both Elizabeth and John in the 1891 census only recently actually. They were not living together. Elizabeth was living as a servant in Bellshill, Lanark. John was living with his wife Marion Berry whom he married in 1890 in Hamilton, Lanark.

3. This has confused me too. I will continue to search though

I had concluded Grieve marriage was the correct one, I expect any children would have been named using the parents on the marriage cert. so that'll not get us any further forward.

If you get any further snippets, do post them on this thread too, that'll help keep things together and we may - who knows we crack the mystery.

Spread your inquiry far and wide - we use all the resources open to us, be it official records, discussion forums, transcribed records, maps, libraries, experts, family Bibles, the wee wumman at the bus stop ...

[HeWhoDrinksGuinness]

Hi, thanks for your response.

1. Elizabeth Mooney married Thomas Grieve in Bellshill, Lanarkshire in 1897.

2 I have found both Elizabeth and John in the 1891 census only recently actually. They were not living together. Elizabeth was living as a servant in Bellshill, Lanark. John was living with his wife Marion Berry whom he married in 1890 in Hamilton, Lanark.

3. This has confused me too. I will continue to search though

I had concluded Grieve marriage was the correct one, I expect any children would have been named using the parents on the marriage cert. so that'll not get us any further forward.

If you get any further snippets, do post them on this thread too, that'll help keep things together and we may - who knows we crack the mystery.

Spread your inquiry far and wide - we use all the resources open to us, be it official records, discussion forums, transcribed records, maps, libraries, experts, family Bibles, the wee wumman at the bus stop ...

I'll definitely keep you updated if I have any breakthroughs. Thanks for your help