Fresh Brain Required!!!.....

[Andy]

I'm going nuts trying to sort out some relationships.

The 1841 for Port Glasgow census has the following all on the same page:

Alex McPhail 42 born Ire
Mary 40 Ire
Elizabeth 10 PG
Daniel 3
William 3
Elizabeth McPhail 21
Catherine 22

Alex McPhail started out as McFaul on Rathlin Island, I have a considerable amount of info on him. His wife was Mary McCurdy again of Rathlin.

Same house there is:

Charles McCurdy 36 born Renfrewshire
Margaret 80 born Ireland

Same house:

John Morrison 42 born Ire
Elizabeth 15 Not in County
Agnes 12 Not in County
Charlotte 10 Not in County
Margaret 8 Not in County
Mary 5 Not in County
Alex 6 mths Not in County
Mary McCurdy 36 Not in County

Next door

Mary McCurdy 25 Ire
Catherine McCurdy 20 Ire
Sophia Black 30 Ire
Winey Shannon 21 Ire
Rosina McQuig 23 Ire
Hannah Linn 20 Ire
Ann McCurdie 19 Ire
Elizabeth Black 20

Now, no cigars for guessing where John Morrison came from. Rathlin.

He married Mary McCurdy in Campbeltown. Mary McCurdy was born in Campbeltown to Charles McCurdy and Margaret Mary McMath. Charles, are you with me, was from Rathlin. Charles McCurdy and M. M. McMath had a good few children including a Charles (born about 1804 who died, and another born in 1817 for whom I have considerable info so NOT the Charles in Port Glasgow.

There is undoubtedly a close link between Alex McFaul/McPhail the Morrisons and at least SIX of the girls next door!

Mary McCurdy was actually John Morrison's wife, Catherine was Mary's sister.

Sophia Black was already married to a McCurdy and later moved to Maine, USA but was using her own name in Port Glasgow (I suspect this was for accomodation and work purposes).

Haven't a clue about Winey (Winnie) Shannon but the other girls Ann McCurdie was from the Toberkeigh McCurdys who moved to Houston & Killellen. Elizabeth Black was also from Rathlin.

Charles died of Typhoid in 1860 and the lackie who reported it didn't have ANY details.

Charles can't be the son of Charles and Margaret Mary McMath but every fibre of my being shouts out that there was a close family relationship to the Campbeltown McCurdys, Morrisons, Port Glasgow McFauls.

The significance of this possible relationship is PROFOUND.

The two biggest authorities on McCurdys are J. A. I. McCurdy and his son, Shane. There is no known link between the Toberkeigh/Rathlin McCurdys but the Charles in Port Glasgow can ONLY be of the Toberkeigh lot and all the evidence seems to add up to a CLOSE relationship between Rathlin and Toberkeigh.

My brain is MUSH trying to figure it out hope someone can suggest something.

[AnnetteR]

Hi Andy

How about a couple of paracetamol. I need a couple just reading it. Phew

All the best

Annette

[G.Love]

I really tried Andy, but I think I don't even know what the question is!

[LesleyB]

Just a few thoughts sping to mind but I feel sure you will already have covered these angles..

You say Charles was born Renfrewshire in the 1841 census. If you can narrow it down a bit to a Parish, see 1851 census suggestion below, you could look for his birth in the OPRs? You might be lucky and it would give his father's and maybe even his mother's name. He does not seem to be on IGI, but thats far from conclusive...

Do you know where he was in 1851? Would the 1851 census give any more useful info? Relationships between persons in the house and the head of household were stated which might be a help, depending on where he was. Also place or Parish of birth should be stated which will give you a way into the OPR (see above).

You don't say if Charles married? If so there could be some detail to glean from that whether OPR, or even better, SR.

What employment was he involved in? Might there be any records to do with that which might help?

Is it possible he might have applied for Poor Relief at any point? Again, that could be a source of more info.

It is possible he might have been a death informant (or witness to a marriage) of any of the (many) folk you mentioned? Very often death informants give their relationship to the deceased. Obviously this sort of info is only really going to apply to the last 5 years of his life, 1855-60, so its a long shot and a lot of work to track them all and maybe all for nothing. Margaret 80 born Ireland would have been a likely candidate, but I kind of doubt she'd made it to 1855 & SR, but you never know your luck!

There is one McCurdy on Scottish Documents - Alexander Leiper McCurdy, 10/11/1863, gardener to James McCall esq residing at Dalhowie Broomhouse near Glasgow. Its only a one page document and may have NOTHING to do with your McCurys at all.

Apologies if I've stated the blinking obvious...I'm sure you will already have thought of much, if not ALL of the above! Best of luck.

[CatrionaL]

Andy,
I feel as though I've just come off one of these whirly things at the shows.

Catriona

[grannysrock]

Hi Andy

like Catherine ma heid is spinning . I think you are looking for Charles probably son of Margaret ? The only thing I could see on the IGI that was close was a Charles McGurdy ( maybe the record really says McCurdy ?) :
Christening: 28 JUN 1801 Port Glasgow, Renfrew, Scotland
Parents:
Father: CHARLES MCGURDY
Mother: MARGARET MCGURDY

C115746 1789 - 1803 1041324 Film 6901054 Film

not much else for this family ?

but you have probably already discounted that hopefully you'll find him on the 1851 like lbathgate says or lurking on some other record.

I wish you weel

Sally

[Kathy]

From the 1851 census if it will help, I was unable to find any McCurdy's

Kathy

Custom house lane
mcphail alexr head m m 51 grocer IRL
mcphail mary wife m f 49 IRL
mcphail betsy dau u f 18 IRL
mcphail daniel son u m 12 scholar RFW Port Glasgow
mcphail willm son u m 12 scholar RFW Port Glasgow
mcphail margt dau u f 8 scholar RFW Port Glasgow
mcphail mary dau u f 5 scholar RFW Port Glasgow

Scotts Lane
morrison elizabeth head w f 60 IRL
morrison mary dau u f 30 yarn bleacher IRL
morrison sarah dau u f 22 flax factory worker IRL
morrison willm son u m 20 fisherman IRL
morrison helen dau u f 15 flax factory worker IRL
morrison elizabeth grndau u f 10m RFW
fullarton thos grnson u m 2m RFW
dillon catherine lodger u f 26 yarn bleacher IRL[/size]

Bay St Parkers Land

morrison james head m m 23 tendor of steam looms IRL Antrim
morrison agnes wife - f 28 IRL Derry
morrison john son u m 2 RFW Port Glasgow
morrison joseph son u m 8m RFW Port Glasgow
flanagan mary lodger u f 28 steamloom weaver AYR Roxam

Church Street

morrison john head m m 26 canvas weaver IRL
morrison margt wife m f 25 IRL
morrison james son u m 4 RFW
morrison william son u m 2 RFW
morrison joseph son u m 9 RFW


Robert Street

black robert head m m 45 sugarhouse lab IRL Stranorlan
black mary wife m f 33 IRL Antrim
black john son u m 9 scholar RFW Port Glasgow
black robert son u m 7 scholar RFW Port Glasgow
black alexander son u m 2 RFW Port Glasgow
hay margaret Head w f 65 housekeeper IRL Antrim

Bay Street Telfer's land

black james head m m 50 tailor, journeyman
black elizabeth wife m f 48
black mary a dau u f 21 flax spinner
black margaret dau u f 19 flax spinner
black agnes dau u f 16 flax spinner
black jane dau u f 9 scholar


Salmon's Close Haunter & Fyfe's land

mccurdie mary Head u f 35 IRL
mccurdie catherine sister u f 30 factory girl IRL
mccurdie betty sister u f 22 ropespinner IRL
hornan duncan nephew u m 15 flax reeler RFW
hornan mary a niece u f 10 RFW
graham ann lodger u f 25 flax hackler IRL
graham catherine lodger u f 23 flax hackler IRL

[Andy]

This is the FOURTH time I've started this reply but I managed to close the site without submitting!!!!

Thanks for all the input.

lbathgate

I've not found Charles on the 1851 census, he was a Rafter (not the White Water variety) he never married and it's unlikely that he'd ever have had to apply for Poor Relief, regardless, all these records for this neck of the woods were destroyed in the Blitz.

I doubt whether I'll ever get round to searching all of the Port Glasgow and East Greenock Hatches, Matches and Dispatches I'd just end up sidetracked by other recognizable names.

For example: in the past few days I was hunting for Morrison marriages for Rathlin couples. One known pair were married in Port Glasgow but I noticed that Daniel McQuilkin was a witness. I've had Daniel pegged as Rathlin for ages but had no proof (still don't) but witnessing a known Rathlin marriage adds a modicum of evidence.

Alexander McPhail/McFaul was fairly well-to-do, he contributed a considerable amount towards the building of St. John's Catholic Church in Port Glasgow and was a very good pal of Father Daniel McConway (a relly of mine from Moville, Donegal).

Alex lived for a while at Custom House Lane (see the census). Literally GENERATIONS of Rathlin Islanders used this house as a first port of call. Indeed the whole short street was, for many years, filled with Rathlin Islanders and Father Daniel McConway's relatives including my Lynch mob!

I have more than a few McCurdys in my database, Alexander Leiper McCurdy was not related in any direct way. He was the son of James and Rebecca Napier and married to Eliza Jane Thomson. His grandfather owned MASSIVE plantations in South America before returning to Scotland and buying almost all of Lesmahagow. This family, like ALL McCurdy/McCurdie/McKirdys originated on Bute.

grannysrock

Sally, I hadn't discounted 1801 Charles son of Charles and Margaret McGurdy (loads of McCurdys were spelled this way). Thing is that the father, Port Glasgow Charles and his brother, Daniel who married Rose Nimmo, were of Toberkeigh stock. They had a brother, Archibald living up the road in Houston and Killellan.

The confusing thing is that known Rathlin families were living with him and next door in 1841. John Morrison, same house in 1841, was 100% married to Mary McCurdy daughter of Charles and Margaret Mary McMath so, on the face of it, Mary, husband and kiddies could have been visiting her mother and brother. EXCEPT Charles McCurdy born 1804 in Campbelton died but another Charles was born to Charles and Margaret Mary McMath in 1817 and I have all of his details!

Two of the girls next door in 1841 were cousins of Charles, Archibald's daughters. The other girls (except Winey Shannon) were 100% Rathlin Islanders.

Kathy

Thanks for the census info (I had some of it already).

Alex McPhail and family were spot on, see above.

None of the Morrisons were of Rathlin, Elizabeth was widow of Thomas a fisherman from Donegal.

James Morrison was from Bushmills, he married Agnes Marshall

John Morrison and Margaret Dempsey were from Antrim but not Rathlin.

Robert Black was of Donegal don't know about the Tailor, James Black but if he was living on Bay Street it's almost certain he was from Donegal.

The McCurdy girls at Salmond's Close were Archibald's daughters (so Toberkeigh) but the Hornan (Horan) children were Rathlin as were the Graham girls. In my original post there was:

Mary McCurdy 25 Ire
Catherine McCurdy 20 Ire
Sophia Black 30 Ire
Winey Shannon 21 Ire
Rosina McQuig 23 Ire
Hannah Linn 20 Ire
Ann McCurdie 19 Ire
Elizabeth Black 20

Ann McCurdie (Toberkeigh) married John Horan (Rathlin). Regardless of Mary and Catherine's ages between 1841 and 1851 they were not the same Mary and Catherine between censuses! (you'll just have to take my word on this).

I still can't explain why Rathlin and Toberkeigh families were staying together but it does suggest fairly close links that, until now, hadn't been identified.