Queen Victoria's Ladies in Waiting at Edinburgh Castle

[theKiwi]

I have this quote in some notes I received about one of my ancestors (who are quite new to me, and turn out to be Scottish when I though all along that all of my mother's ancestors were English)

The story is tolled Peter who was reasonable well skilled as a tin smith was in love with a young girl by the name of Elizabeth Oliver born in Sutherland shire, Scotland 1836. Elizabeth was the daughter of Alexander and Betty Oliver nee Gordon a lady in waiting to Queen Victoria at Edinburough Castle in Scotland. Elizabeth was the Grand Daughter to a General Gordon who had served in the Queens Army. Peter was not seen to be from the right blood line to marry Elizabeth in Scotland but Queen Victoria would give her permission to the marriage only if the two migrated.

The Peter (Mulvay) and Elizabeth (Oliver) mentioned at the start here emigrated to New Zealand in late 1861 and were married there in 1862. She was born 1836 in Berriedale, Caithness, so her grandfather - the General Gordon mentioned above was born at the latest in the mid 1790s (2 generations at 20 years per generation).

Quite separately, in another whole branch of the family from that which supplied the above, I had been told by my Mum that this same Elizabeth Gordon (Mum only knew her last name, not her first name) was somehow connected to General Gordon of Khartoum.

But these seem to be at odds as General Gordon of Khartoum was English, and had no descendants, although he may I suppose have had a relative also a General from Scotland.

This page

http://www.turnbullclan.com/tca_genealo ... htm#i57071

is about the grandfather William Gordon as compiled by another researcher which indicates the grandfather of Elizabeth Oliver was a farmer - this seems at odds with with the statement he was a General I think.

But I'm wondering just how easy it would be to prove or disprove this family legend- are there any records of who were Queen Victoria's Ladies in Waiting at Edinburgh Castle - are there records of the British Army that might indicate a General Gordon serving at any times during Queen Victoria's reign - in the early parts presumably.

I hope the above is coherent enough to explain what I'm wondering about, and I'd appreciate any insights or comments the kind folks of TalkingScot have to offer.

Thanks

Roger

[Currie]

Hello Roger,

Searching 19th Century British Library newspapers for General Gordon prior to c.1880 when Gordon of Khartoum became a General brings up almost 1500 results. It’s a similar situation when you google or even just search in google books. There are just too many Generals Gordon.

To give an example these are all the Generals Gordon in the BDM columns of 19C Newspapers up to 1861. (abbreviated by me)

1802 Lt Gen A Gordon Com. 26th Reg landed at Leith from Egypt
1805 Brig Gen Gordon at Banff
1806 Lt Gen Andrew Gordon was in America with 26th during late war
1812 Cow on Gen Gordon’s farm at Mains of Maryculter had 3 calves
1818 At Cork Margt Essex dau of Maj Gen Gordon marries Capt Thomas Mosse
1821 Aberdeen newspaper reports that Gen Gordon at the Highland Soc of London
1827 Christiana, wife of Capt Read daughter of Maj Gen Gabriel Gordon dies Montreal
1833 London Lt Gen John Gordon dies, grandson of Earl of Aboyne
1840 Edinburgh paper death in France of old age of Lt Gen Benjamin Gordon of Balbithan
1841 Died at his seat Cairness Aberdeen Gen Thos. Gordon
1848 James eldest son of Gen Gordon of Lochdu Inverness, marries Jane Moore Blair
1851 Gen Sir Willoughby Gordon, QM Gen of forces dies age 81 in England
1854 at Exton Hants Caroline wife of Gen Cosmo Gordon dies age 74
1855 Manchester Gen Gabriel Gordon dies age 92
1861 Mge Mary Eliz Guise Spence nee Gordon niece of Gen Gordon of Culdraine Aberdeen
1861 At Culfrain by Huntley Gen Gordon RAS age 71

A marriage of a General’s daughter you would think would have made the newspapers but nothing comes up with a General Gordon and Oliver search but that doesn’t mean a lot. I couldn’t spot an Oliver or a Gordon Lady-in-Waiting anywhere in the newspapers. Queen Victoria seemed to be constantly changing Ladies in Waiting. They were usually Duchess, Marchioness, Countess, or Viscountess this or that. Occasionally there was a Lady this or that. What’s a Lady, is it the wife or daughter of a Lord or similar?

Victoria appears to have been very particular as to whom she employed, for want of a better term, as a Lady in Waiting. In 1848, when Victoria and Albert visited Aberdeen en route to their new hideaway at Balmoral Castle, she had with her the Duchess of Norfolk, Countess of Gainsborough and the Viscountess Canning as Ladies in Waiting.

On that basis the odds must be that the family of a Lady in Waiting of Q V would appear in Burke’s Peerage. To tie any of this together you would probably just have to work backwards from General Gordon (of Khartoum) and from wherever else and see if they meet up anywhere. Census information should give some idea of the social status of the lady in question and whether that and her family circumstances and place of residence was compatible with Q V’s visits to Scotland

Many of these royalty stories don’t make a lot of sense when subjected to scrutiny. It makes Victoria look like an absolute monarch with those sorts of powers. Much more likely to cause such a departure would have been a simple elopement because of parental objection but then I’m only guessing. I don’t think Q V stayed at Edinburgh Castle when she came to Edinburgh, wasn’t Holyroodhouse the Royal residence.

Hope that’s useful,
Alan

PS. After all that here’s a list of Q V’s L’s in W. In my browser it’s completely blank. If it appears blank in your browser select on your view menu: page style / no style. http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~canyon/qv_ladies.htm

[SarahND]

Hi Roger,
My mind started going off in several directions on this one I'll throw these ideas on the table in case they turn out to be relevant.

I see that Betsey Gordon's husband Alexander Oliver was a shepherd in Rogart, Sutherland in 1851. Young Elizabeth/Betsey is there with them, the eldest in the family of 7 children.
Frorn the IGI, she was born 26 Apr 1836, less than two months after the marriage of her parents on 12 Feb 1836 in Latheron, Caithness.

The Kirk Session records appear to exist from that time. Perhaps there would be a hint of whether Betsey and Alexander had anticipated the marriage vows themselves, or whether he married her to cover up her pregnancy by someone possibly in Queen Victoria's entourage. If young Betsey's father was someone other than Alexander Oliver, it might make more sense of the family story.

To try to trace a Gordon connection, I'm sure you noticed that General Gordon of Khartoum was born in 1833, so was of an age to be young Elizabeth/Betsey's brother or cousin in the same generation.

I assume you have the death record of the elder Betsey Gordon, wife of Alexander Oliver. Who does she say her parents were? There were aristocratic Gordons in Aberdeenshire at Haddo House, could she have been related?

From Wikipedia re: Haddo House:

"The Gordons, who later became the Earls of Aberdeen and Marquesses of Aberdeen, have lived on the site for over 500 years."

This all rang a bell since my half ggg uncle James Giles, R.S.A. designed the grounds at Haddo in 1830 for the Gordons and was also appointed by Queen Victoria to paint the original castle of Balmoral to help the Royal couple decide on its purchase. Perhaps Betsey Gordon was serving in some capacity on the Gordon estates in Aberdeenshire during one of Queen Victoria's visits.

Also from Wikipedia (my emphasis):

"Balmoral is today best known as a royal residence, the summer retreat of Queen Elizabeth II and The Duke of Edinburgh. Its history as a royal residence dates back to 1848, when the house was rented to Queen Victoria and Prince Albert by the trustees of Sir Robert Gordon (who had obtained a long-term lease of the castle in 1830 and died in 1847)."

There are so many Gordons in the northeast of Scotland, as I'm sure you know... Could be a real puzzle trying to figure them out! Often there is a grain of truth to these old stories, so there may be a real connection somewhere. Good luck!

All the best,
Sarah

[SarahND]

PS. After all that here’s a list of Q V’s L’s in W. In my browser it’s completely blank. If it appears blank in your browser select on your view menu: page style / no style. http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~canyon/qv_ladies.htm

Hi Alan,
I get a blank also, but if I search the page, two Gordons come up out of the ether under Women of the Bedchamber and one under Maids of Honour. Copying an apparently blank page and pasting it into a text document causes these people to miraculously appear (Same effect as choosing "no style" as you suggest)

The Gordons in question appear to be:
Under Women of the Bedchamber (both hits on the name Gordon apply to the same person):
Honourable Mrs. Hamilton Gordon (later Honourable Lady Hamilton Gordon) 1855-1901

And under Maids of Honour:
Miss Louisa Gordon 1856-1857

So, both too late to be of interest. Having gone through all those gymnastics, I realize that the list is only from 1837 onward "This document contains a comprehensive list of the women of the Royal Household who were in waiting (in attendance) upon Queen Victoria from the time of her accession in June 1837 until her death in January 1901.
... Finally, the list does not include information about the women who attended upon Queen Victoria when Princess (for example, her nurses and her governesses)"

Betsey Gordon was married to Alexander Oliver the year before this list started, so if she did attend Queen Victoria, it would have been before she became Queen.

Regards,
Sarah

[Currie]

Hello Sarah,

That page is really weird. The names are invisible using Firefox but visible using IE. It’s using Microsoft’s standards rather than International standards. That’s what can happen if web pages aren’t tested using alternative browsers.

All the best,
Alan