A Soldier's Paybook

[Pandabean]

Hey All, Im still alive and lurking around, not had a good start to the year and as a result I have been off work for a few weeks and likely to return next week so I thought I would delve into the family history for a little bit, while I am off.

This is just an out of curiosity type question.

Looking back at my Great Great Uncle, who was killed in WW1, he had written a will which exists on the NAS Catalogue and I managed to get a copy a few years ago. Looks like it can now only be viewed by going to NAS so I was kind of lucky in a way.

These wills were at the back of the paybooks is that correct?
Were they ripped out of the book by the soldier before going to service or would they have been ripped out after death.

Now my question is, what happened to the paybooks if the soldier died and a body was buried? Would they have been thrown away, sent back to the war office and filed?

The interesting thing in the notes for the will on NAS is that it is burnt around the edges, which it does look to be in the photocopy I have. So does that imply that it may have been with the service records when they were burnt during the bombings of WW2.

I have one of these books, which was my Grandfather's from WW2 and it contains quite a it of information, obviously he must have kept it after being discharged from service.

Hope someone can give a bit of help on this one.
Thanks,
Andy

[LesleyB]

Hi Andy
I'm guessing you will have already read this at NAS:
http://www.nas.gov.uk/guides/soldiersWills.asp

There are several distinct types of will. Apart from the first type described below, the Army forms were designed to be filled in before the soldier was under orders for active service. The completed wills were mostly filed in a local military record office until requested by the War Office when a soldier died.

The soldiers' wills belong to a special series (SC70/8) among the records of the Edinburgh Commissary Office, which received them from the War Office because the men were domiciled in Scotland. Most were not recorded in the commissary registers of the Commissary Office and the sheriff courts.

A fuller discussion of the contents of the soldiers' and airmen's wills, and the cataloguing project, can be found in Tristram Clarke, "Scottish soldiers' wills, 1857-1965", 'Scottish Archives' vol. 10 (2004), pp.69-92 (published by the Scottish Records Association).

might be worth tracking down the above.

There is an image of a typical example here (for anyone who is interested!)
http://www.nas.gov.uk/guides/soldiersWillsExample1.asp

Best wishes
Lesley

[Pandabean]

Hi Lesley,

I have indeed read through that and actually have a copy of the will. I did not find any mention on there where the actual pay book would have gone.

Thanks,
Andy

[LesleyB]

Hi Andy
And have you already seen the publication mentioned above; Tristram Clarke's, "Scottish soldiers' wills, 1857-1965", 'Scottish Archives' vol. 10 (2004), pp.69-92 (published by the Scottish Records Association), which may give a bit more detail about the wills?

Best wishes
Lesley

[Pandabean]

Nope I havent read that book. I shall add it to my long list of things to read.
Thanks

[Currie]

Hello Andy,

The British Army and the Australian Army appear to have been using the same or very similar forms etc., or at least they had the same numbers.

Here’s a service file for one of my distant relatives, Stephen Page no.302, who was in the AIF and who was Killed in Action. The documents don’t appear to be in any particular order. http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine ... 8&I=1&SE=1

The 3rd document is a typed extract of the will that had been written in the Pay Book (Army Book 64).

The 4th document is Army Form B. 2090A reporting the death. It sets out certain procedures including:

All private documents and effects received from the front or hospital, as well as the Pay Book, should be examined, and if any will is found it should be at once forwarded to the War Office.
Any information received as to verbal expressions by a deceased soldier of his wishes as to the disposal of his estate should be reported to the War Office as soon as possible.
A duplicate of this report is to be sent to the Fixed Centre Paymaster at Home, or to the D.F.A.G., Indian Expeditionary Force, or Field Disbursing Officer, as the case may require, together with the deceased’s Pay Book (after withdrawal of any will from the latter.) If the deceased’s Small Book is at the Base, it should be forwarded to the War Office with this Report.

The 21st document is a letter to the Family Solicitor advising that the Pay Book is the property of the Government and will remain in its possession.

So the detached Will went to the War Office and the Pay Book to the Paymaster. A copy of the Will may have been on the service file, and been burnt, but an original Will shouldn’t have been.

I’ve never seen a Pay Book on any of the Australian WW1 service files I’ve looked at.

I wonder what the Paymaster did with them? Did he collect old Pay Books and how many Pay Books would a soldier have used during his enlistment in the Army? I’ve never seen one myself. What sort of condition was an average Pay Book in after some time in the trenches and what sort of condition would one have been in that was recovered from a long dead soldier.

I had a job many years ago where part of it was the checking of returned books of pension vouchers, the type that were cashed in each fortnight at a Post Office. I recall a couple of books that were returned by a couple who had been involved in a car accident and who had apparently bled freely into the handbag. It wasn’t a very pleasant job accounting for that lot, I had to peel them apart to make sure they were all there. The vouchers I mean.

All the best,
Alan

[Maz]

I have still my grandfather's original pay book from WW1 (Australian AIF) which was started in November 1915 when he enlisted and finished in January 1917 even though he was still on active service until May 1917 when he was wounded and eventually sent to a London hospital. I assumed that the writing up of the book stopped as they were engaged in a lot of battles during those five months. His book survived through all of these battles, the hospital ship to England and the return ship to Australia. It is still in quite good condition although the pages have separated from the binding.

At the back of the pay book is an example of a will and the page next to that is left blank for the soldier to write his own will. My grandfather's pages are stamped with the wording "No Will in Pay Book when received by Reconciliation Sub Section" as he had not filled in that page.

The book is also stamped with the word 'Cancelled" on many pages so assume that was done after he was discharged so they must have given the pay book back to him.

When I requested a copy of his dossier (before you could access these things online) there was no copy of a will in his paperwork so I assume he just didn't write one. Maybe he was confident that he was going to return.

[Currie]

That’s interesting Maz. I suppose for some soldiers there could also have been a bit of superstition involved. Sort of tempting fate if you wrote a will.

All the best,
Alan

[Rockford]

These wills were at the back of the paybooks is that correct?
Were they ripped out of the book by the soldier before going to service or would they have been ripped out after death.

Hi Andy,

I got a copy of a Paybook Will from NAS relating to my grandfather's uncle, who was killed at Loos on 25 September 1915. It is simply a page headed 'Will' and seems to be a late numbered page in the book, under the heading he has simply written that he left all of his property to his wife and gave her name and address. This must be the blank page that Maz has seen, where a soldier didn't have to use the standard one.

My relative seems to have written the will during the night crossing to France or very soon after arriving, as it's dated the day after the date given in the orders for embarkation. I don't know whether there would have been an encouragement to do so, or whether it was an awareness of where he was going that prompted it. I can't imagine the pages being torn out of the books right on arrival in France, as I'm sure that would do wonders for morale - although maybe I'm just not pragmatic.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I really can't answer any of your questions with any certainty - only that the will of my relation from his paybook seems to have made it from Loos back to the authorities to enable it to be actioned. Peter has a headstone at Philosophe CWGC Cemtery at Mazingarbe, so I assume he was found and identified, which perhaps made the process of locating his paybook easier.

Best wishes

Brian