East Lothian Cavalry (Again!)

[Clanchattan]

Hi Everyone,
My Great x3 Grandfather James McIntosh (Born c.1769) married Isabel Nisbet in Dunbar in 1794 whilst he was in the East Lothian Cavalry. I have searched in vain at the NAS in Edinburgh for any records of him and have visited Haddington Library without success.

The children were late in arriving i.e. James (b.1807), David (b.1809), William (b.1812) and Jean Brown (b.1816), so was he in service away from home?

I have traced Jean Brown McIntosh, through her marriage to Robert Roycroft, to New Zealand, and am in contact with their descendents. Ironically he was a Waterloo Veteran and I wonder if he met his future father-in-law during military service?

So on Googling ELC recently I was amazed to find several relevant posts detailing the Regiment's locations in the UK during the period my relative served. (see Scooter 24th Nov 2009 etc). I've checked some of the leads without success at the moment. Can anyone help me breach my brick wall?

I live in Northumberland U.K.

Regards Gordon

[Currie]

Hello Gordon, and Welcome to TalkingScot.

This is the previous thread about the East Lothian Cavalry. viewtopic.php?f=32&t=14479

Here’s an earlier snippet from The Times, Saturday, Dec 27, 1794.
“Edinburgh, Dec. 20.
On Monday last the East Lothian Cavalry, commanded by Major Hamilton, of Pencaitland, left Dunbar to march to Musselburgh.”

You may have to follow the route Scott went down i.e. visit the archives and have a look at the Muster Rolls.

Chelsea Pensioner records are being digitised and put online as described in this post viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14867 but the earlier records aren’t due for another twelve months. Some of those soldiers appear to have spent part of their service in the various Lothian Fencible Regiments and if you’re very lucky he may crop up there.

No doubt more of the National Archives military records will appear online in years to come.

All the best,
Alan

[Clanchattan]

Hello Alan,
Happy Easter from a rather cold UK (It was -1C this am). Thanks for your reply and welcome, and info. I tried the 'Find My Past' site and the list of Chelsea Pensioners and was disappointed to find, despite paying my fee and putting in my James' details, the result was one born 1830 at Kirkintilloch!

I found another more likely James on the NA site ie WO 97/189/89 ex Portsbury, Edinburgh who served 1794- 1816, but no further details as yet.

There are also 4 James' on the Peninsula Medal Roll 1793- 1814, two being in the 42nd Foot, but no further details as yet.

Thanks for the snippet re the ELC leaving Dunbar 20th Dec 1794, James and Isabel just married on the 14th Dec. and I can visualise Isabel waving James off into the sunset!

On the birth of his children James was listed as a Gentleman's Servant. More strangely James is No1 on the Family Trees coming back from NZ, with the only other details being that he was a Gentleman's Gentleman at Sandringham!! Now Sandringham was not a Royal Residence at this time, but it suggests that maybe he was an Officer's Batman.

Thanks again I'll keep searching.

Cheers Gordon

[Currie]

Happy Easter Gordon,

If he is going to crop up in the Chelsea records it would only be in the earlier batch of records which won’t be online for another twelve months. But he will only appear there if he enlisted in another regiment after the ELC was disembodied in 1800, or thereabouts, and if he served sufficient years or suffered a wound etc that qualified him for a pension, so you have to be lucky in that regard.

There’s an Isabella Nisbet birth in 1777 on the IGI but like the other entries there for this family it’s only a submission. It claims her parents to be Wm Nisbet and Helen Dickson. If that’s her and the information is right and the family stuck to traditional naming the first daughter would be Helen and the second son William. That’s a lot of ifs but maybe there were earlier children and perhaps one or more died and were replaced in name by others.

The perceived gap to the first child possibly may mean that his wife went with him when the regiment moved to England and some children were born during the three or four years they were there.

All the best,
Alan

[scooter]

Hi Gordon,

As you've probably already read, in the absence of any pension records etc., the only other source you would need to look at are the muster rolls and pay lists which will tell you when are where your 3xG Grandfather was serving, and for how long for. I've photographed some of them and will see if I've copied documents that mention James.

Best,

Scott

[scooter]

Hi Gordon,

I had a look at the sample pages I photographed at Kew regarding the East & West Lothian Fencible Cavalry that relate to a Major Alexander MacLean's troop (under whom my possible 5x Great Grandfather served) and saw that there was a James McIntosh listed between 25th December 1797 - 25th July 1798. Assuming there weren't any other James McIntosh's in other troops, he could be your man. I should imagine he'll be recorded in earlier, and probably later muster lists, from where it will be noted when he joined (to the day) and when he was discharged. I am planning to continue my research into the East Lothian muster rolls at some point, and will note down any other dates for James I find.

Best wishes,

Scott

[Clanchattan]

Hi Alan,

Thanks for the info. James appeared to be out of the Militia at the birth of his known children i.e. 1807 onwards. They lived quite near to both Edinburgh Castle and Holyrood Palace. I've checked the meagre Servants Records at the NAS with no luck.

I know of Isabella Nisbet b 1777 and found the originator of The Nesbit /Nisbet Society ( Andrew Nisbet) whose records go back to 1590 but she does not appear.

Thaks again.

Regards Gordon

[Clanchattan]

Hi Scott,

Many thanks for your posts. You must have been surprised to see your old topic raised again. As mentioned I have searched existing records at the NAS for years for the illusive James and have pestered Craig Statham at Haddington Library a few times without success.

I'm impressed that you have found a James McIntosh amongst your existing records, but I'll not build my hopes up too much as I've found it to be quite a common name. Many thanks for keeping him in mind when you do further research.

If I plan a visit to Kew perhaps I could contact you for the 'Modus Operandi'.

Regards Gordon

[Montrose Budie]

It occurred to me that it could be a good idea, especially for anyone reading this thread, to distinguish between fencible and yeomanry cavalry.

Fencibles were hostilities-only full-time regulars who were limited to home service (i.e. "de-fencible"), unless all members voted to go overseas.

Thirty-four Fencible Cavalry regiments were raised in 1794-95, and most, if not all, were soon renamed "Light Dragoons".

These fencible regiments should not be confused with county yeomanry regiments of cavalry, part-time volunteers for local defence, which formed at about the same time. Most regiments disbanded in early 1800 and the rest at the Peace of Amiens in 1802.


The website at http://www.napoleon-series.org/military ... bles1.html has the following -

The Forgotten Army: Fencible Regiments of Great Britain 1793 - 1816
Fencible Cavalry Regiments [of Light Dragoons] 1794-1799

East & West Lothian Fencible Cavalry 2 troops 4 April 1794 Colonel John Hamilton


And the greatly missed http://www.regiments.org website has -

East and West Lothian Fencible Cavalry J. Hamilton 1794.05.12-<1799>


For the East Lothian Yeomanry Cavalry http://www.regiments.org (this link no onger works) has -

1797.05.07 East Lothian Yeomanry Cavalry
one troop raised at Haddington
1802.07.13 second troop raised
1803 third and fourth troop raised
1823 reduced to one troop
1828.03.27 one troop retained with no pay
1831 placed on pay
1838 disbanded


The Militia have always been a "territorial" force, answering to the Sheriff of the County and later the Lord Lieutenant. Officers' qualifications included the provision that they be local land owners.


Service in the Militia was usually voluntary, but where recruitment failed the ranks could be filled by ballot. (But someone selected by ballot could pay someone else to take their place!). Many classes were exempt from service in the Militia, including peers, soldiers, clergy, etc. An Act of 1662 formed the basis for Militia law until 1908.


A French invasion scare in 1794 led the government to pass a bill inviting the county Lord Lieutenants to raise troops of volunteer cavalry composed of gentlemen and yeomanry. The latter were tenant farmers and freeholders.


By 1798 every county had raised several such troops, and one, the Castlemartin Yeomanry Cavalry, later the Pembrokeshire Yeomanry, earned a unique battle honour for repelling the last invasion of Great Britain, - at Fishguard on the Welsh coast in 1797. This is also the only battle honour ever awarded to the British Army for an action in Great Britain.

In this Napoleonic Wars period, most Scottish regiments of militia, regiments of foot, were raised in the very late 1790s and disbanded by 1802. Typically, they served all over the UK, e.g. the Aberdeenshire Militia spent some time in Mid- and East Lothian, where one of my 3xgreatgrandfathers most probably met his bride-to-be.

Many who served in such a militia regiment, were attracted by the prospect of joining a regiment of foot of the regular army, and went on to serve in The Peninsular Campaign. Many who had served in a Scottish militia regiment ended up in an English foot regiment of the line. My 3xgreatgrandfather's brother went on to serve with the 52nd of Foot right though the Peninsular Campaign earning a unique set of medals.


In 1816 all Volunteer units were disbanded, and the yeomanry were reduced, many serving for years without pay. The yeomanry continued to play an important role in the maintenance of law and order until the establishment of local police forces.

mb


PS It was possible for a time to download a copy of the http://www.regiments.org database from various sites on the web, -it's a while since I checked.

The internal functionality of links is 100%, but external links don't always work.

I'd offer to email a copy to anyone interested except that the size of the file is 28Mb and my ISP doesn't permit an attachment of such a size. If you are interested, PM me and we can discuss how to get a copy to you ........

mb

[scooter]

That's very helpful MB, I'd forgotten about regiments.org. It was indeed a great resource. In case anyone is wondering what a Pay List & Muster Roll may look like for this period, here is the cover and first page (from 1798) of a document relating to the East & West Lothian Fencible Cavalry. As mentioned on another thread, I've looked at a large number of muster rolls and pay lists relating to the various Militia and Volunteer regiments from Renfrew (not listed on regoiments.org I notice?), and they are very much the same. I suspect that goes across the board?





Cheers!

Scott