Further identification

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crayspond
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:23 am
Location: Reading UK

Further identification

Post by crayspond » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:29 pm

Can anyone tell me if i would be able to find out from the WW1 records any details of the family of J. McPhee or is this as good as it gets?

Era WW1
Surname McPHEE
Forename J
Rank Pte
Service number 23648
Decoration
Place of birth Glasgow
Date of death 16 August 1917
Theatre of death France
Cause of death d.
SNWM roll THE CAMERONIANS (SCOTTISH RIFLES)
Unit name In or attached to THE CAMERONIANS
Other detail 10th Bn.

Sadly i have uncovered two brothers Patrick and Malcolm McPhee who both died a day apart on 2nd and 3rd September 1918 - both are identified and on the Scottish National Monument. They are also in the CWGC records both have mother/mother and father John and Catherine McPhee of 220 Thistle St South Side Glasgow mentioned. They had an older brother John who may also have been in WWI. I have looked at him through the normal channels (within reason) but had no luck. My suspicion is this might be him. Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks.

WilmaM
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Location: Falkirk area

Re: Further identification

Post by WilmaM » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:43 pm

The one WWI soldiers record that I have does indeed give a little more detail.
Of his parents and his 2 sisters still living at home ( dependants) his other, married, sisters aren't mentioned

However many records were lost or badly damaged, the one I have is tattered and stained but fortunately still legible as it was scanned a couple of times.
So don't build your hopes up too much.

I can't remember where the service records are to be found nowadays, mine was downloaded when the National Archives had a special over on years ago.

garibaldired
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Location: Dorset, UK

Re: Further identification

Post by garibaldired » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:48 pm

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much available information here:

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casu ... 275/mcphee,-/

It would have been helpful if he'd had something put on his headstone!

Otherwise www.findmypast.co.uk or Ancestry have what military records there are. You might be lucky. :)

Best wishes,
Meg

Currie
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Location: Australia

Re: Further identification

Post by Currie » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:06 am

A search for “220 thistle” in the additional information section of CWGC brings up three results.

Private McFEE, JAMES
Service Number 3/6626
Died 04/04/1917
Aged 24
10th Bn.
Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
Son of Catherine McFee, of 220, Thistle St., South Side, Glasgow.

Private McPHEE, P
Service Number 265183
Died 02/09/1918
Aged 24
7th Bn.
Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)
Son of John and Katherine Wright McPhee, of 220, Thistle St., South Side, Glasgow.

Private McPHEE, MALCOLM
Service Number 46089
Died 03/09/1918
Aged 18
1st/7th Bn.
Highland Light Infantry
Son of Catherine McPhee, of 220, Thistle St., South Side, Glasgow.

No luck with John.

Alan

AndrewP
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Re: Further identification

Post by AndrewP » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:23 am

FindMyPast offers a couple of more details about J McPhee 23648.

First name(s): John
Last name: McPhee
Service number: 23648
Rank: Private
Regiment: Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)
Battalion: 10th Battalion.
Birth place: Govan, Glasgow
Residence: -
Enlistment place: Glasgow
Death year: 1917
Death day: 16
Death month: 8
Cause of death: Died of wounds
Death place: France & Flanders
Theatre of war: Western European Theatre
Supplementary Notes: -
Category: Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory: First World War
Collections from: Great Britain, UK None

= = = = = = = = = = =

First name(s): J
Last name: McPhee
Birth year: -
Death year: 1917
Death date: 16 Aug 1917
Number: 23648
Rank: Private
Unit: 10th Bn.
Regiment: Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)
Grave reference: II. B. 21.
Cemetery or memorial: Brandhoek New Military Cemetery No.3
Burial country: Belgium
Link: https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead
War: First World War, 1914-1918
Record set: Commonwealth War Graves Commission Debt Of Honour
Category: Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory: First World War
Collections from: Great Britain, UK None

All the best,

AndrewP

crayspond
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:23 am
Location: Reading UK

Re: Further identification

Post by crayspond » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:34 pm

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for taking the time to look for me - I just stumbled upon the WW1 information the other night while i was looking through my file on Catherine McPhee my ggrandmother.
Alan's discovery of a James McFee at 220 Thistle St is a puzzle as i don't have a James in the family. Unless John's first name was James.
Maybe the James is John?

The John McPhee and J McPhee seem like the same person 23648 Cameronians 10th Batt but no address except Govan and no next of kin. I don't think I'll get much more from that.

I just had a detailed look at Alan's James McPhee and i have to conclude that he is in fact John. On the first Grave reg report it has him as J. McPhee then on the 2nd report it's typed as James McPhee mother Catherine McPhee of 220 Thistle St. Too much of a coincidence. Do you agree? A typing error.

AndrewP
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Re: Further identification

Post by AndrewP » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:15 pm

Hi Ailsa,

There is no direct proof that John (23468) is of your family group. However there does appear to be a John in the family. He shows up with the family in the 1901 census, aged 7. That census shows Father, Mother, 4 sons (none called James) and a daughter.

James (3/6626) existed, and was son of John and Catherine, brother of Thomas, Patrick, Malcolm and Catherine. They are given as next-of-kin on his Army registration papers, which can be seen on FindMyPast. Their address is given as 220 Thistle Street, S S, Glasgow. James was age 18 years and 10 months in June 1912 when he signed up for the Army Reserves. That gives him a potential birth around August 1893.

In the 1911 census, Catherine describes herself as a widow, with children Malcolm and Catherine (ages matching the ones found in the 1901 census). Then in 1912, John, the father is listed as one of the next-of-kin. I wonder if he was estranged rather than deceased. In the 1911 census, Catherine declares 8 children, 4 surviving. Then on the 1912 Army papers, there is James, the applicant, and he names both parents and 4 siblings. He enlisted for 6 years (but was killed in action before the 6 years was completed).

The Army papers go on to show James's British War Medal and Victory Medal being granted to his mother. That is followed by a burial record (Aubigny Cemetery Extension). Next is a receipt for the medals. Followed by a badly torn record of some sort from the Medals Office - it refers to James's name being on the 1914 "Star" roll. The next item lists his next of kin: widow (none), children (none), father (dead), mother (Catherine, living at 220 Thistle Street), full blood brothers Patrick and Malcolm (both killed in action) and sister Catherine, age 20 (also at 220 Thistle Street); grandparents deceased; nephews and nieces: none; Uncles and Aunts by blood (not by marriage): none. The way the form is worded, it may be that the last three groups of relatives only had to be declared if the ones before were still living. Other papers include one listing his physical attributes, and a casualty record, a list of his misdemeanours and punishments, a document regarding his personal property, a receipt for the "1914 Star" medal, a receipt (torn, no meaningful information), a 1912 company conduct sheet (showing a number of misconduct events - continued overleaf), a medical history form, another casualty form, a Service Record (shows father as next of kin overleaf).

Between the 1901 census and the Army papers, my feeling is that son John enlisted as James, for whatever reason. John (23648) looks not to be of your family group.

All the best,

AndrewP

crayspond
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Location: Reading UK

Re: Further identification

Post by crayspond » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:34 pm

Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the post - I am not subscribed to FMP so the army details regarding his records are very interesting. I note what you say about the father maybe being estranged. Why would she would put widow on the census?
On his notes it says brothers killed in action but they were killed after him - who would have added this i wonder.
I'm looking on SP at births for 1893 - 3 John McPhee's one Hutchesontown one Gorbals one John C in Tradeston other ones outside the city centre. No James McPhee's for 1893. Catherine and John were married Dec 1893 at 31 Brown St Bridgeton.
It's helpful also that Catherine 20 is still alive and living at 220 Thistle St. I haven't managed to find out what happened to her.
All in all a sad story, how awful to lose 3 sons - my grandfather was the son Thomas 16 in the 1901 census - their half brother. I have a big gap in his life from 1901 until he marries my grandmother in 1920. He went back to using his father's name Beveridge. This has maybe given me the idea that he enlisted early on before WW1 maybe as Thomas McPhee.
Thanks again,

AndrewP
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Re: Further identification

Post by AndrewP » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:29 pm

Hi Ailsa,

Quite a few of the documents were dated in 1920 and 1921, when the medals were being sent out to next-of-kin, so that is how the death information for the brothers who died after him are moted on his papers.

If John and Catherine were married at the end of 1893, and their son was born in August of that year, then there is every likelyhood that he is registered under his mother's maiden surname.

All the best,

AndrewP

crayspond
Posts: 614
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:23 am
Location: Reading UK

Re: Further identification

Post by crayspond » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:35 pm

Hi All,
Not getting very far with what happened to father John McPhee or daughter Catherine McPhee. She is difficult because if she married obviously she will take on a new name.
I looked at the valuation rolls for John and coincidentally in 1920 there is a John McPhee living at 246 Thistle St South. He's not there in 1925. I've tried a few death certs images but there is too many around 1911 to 1930 to look through and to be honest it's not really that necessary to have it.
I wouldn't mind some tips on how to find out if Catherine (daughter) married or when she died. She is the last member of the family apart from her half brother my grandfather Thomas Beveridge.
I've got some credits waiting!

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