Any records for Denny Lodging House?

Lorna Allison · Post by **Lorna Allison** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:53 am

Hello Folks

Wondering if anyone knows whether records might have been kept regarding occupants of a lodging house in Broad Street, Denny or where I should look to find out? A gt. grandfather, John Pringle, and 3 siblings were in there in 1851 when he was 7. A bit too early for the Stirling Combination Poorhouse.

Grateful for any pointers.

Regards

Lorna

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:30 pm

Hello Lorna,

Most of the references to Broad Street, Denny, in 19th Century British Newspapers are BMD notices and there aren’t any street numbers or anything much identifying buildings etc.

Except that there were 11 piggeries in Broad St, Denny, in 1899 at the time of an outbreak of Swine Fever, and a fire in a shop there in 1900.

Archaeological excavations there (perhaps of a lodging house?)
http://www.rcahms.gov.uk/pls/portal/can ... ink=275711

The New Statistical Account of Scotland, 1845, has some interesting information about Denny from page 115, includes a description of the town from page 122, and touches very briefly on the provision for paupers from page 136. Much easier read if downloaded. If you think the children were under the care of the Denny Parish maybe there are some records but I’m not sure where.
http://www.google.com.au/books?id=RqICA ... %22poor%22

But as far as getting records of 1850s occupants of what looks to be an unidentified, run of the mill, privately operated lodging house your chances would have to be negligible. That’s assuming there were ever any kept in the first place. I had a look at FreeCen to see who else was there in 1841/51 and the general layout of the street etc. but unfortunately there appears to be nothing there for Denny.

A bit off the subject but there’s an article in the Caledonian Mercury, Thursday, July 25, 1850 about a George Pringle, watchmaker, Denny, being found guilty of stealing a watch which had been left with him to repair. He was sentenced to seven years transportation but there is no other detail.

Hope there’s something useful there,
Alan

Lorna Allison · Post by **Lorna Allison** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:37 pm

Oh Alan, that is terrible. George is indeed my husband's gg grandfather. In the 1841 census the parents, George & Christian were living with their three oldest children Agnes, Susan and William in Stirling Street, Denny and his occupation was Watchmaker. By 1851 the oldest girl Agnes (15) was working on a farm at Westerwood, East Kilbride while mother Christian and son George aged 9 are absent - I presumed dead.

Regardless of whether or not he did indeed take the watch, what a sentence and no thought clearly for the welfare of the children.

I will have to try to find out firstly, if they did transport him and if so, where to. In the dark about that but I did see somewhere that there are records of convicts who were sent to Australia. I suppose it could of course have been the West Indies. Don't suppose he would ever get back, if he did survive the 7 years. Probably started a new life.

I am immensely grateful for your help in this. I shall now get back to your post and try the links.

Thanks again.

Lorna

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:24 pm

Hi Lorna
I had one guy who was sentenced to transportation. The records are at NAS - can't remember dates covered, but it will be in my notes somewhere. The ships lists I was looking at on microfilm suggested that they left England and picked up "passengers" in Scotland before leaving...

In the case on my chap, he was sentenced, but did not actually go as far as I can see. Sentenced in about 1854 to 16 years I think, but is in England in the 1861....??

Best wishes
Lesley

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:14 pm

Hi Lorna

Found the relevant bit in my notes:

Transportation, www.nas.gov.uk
Information on prisoners sentenced to be transported can be found in the registers for the local prisons (see below) serving the courts where they were sentenced. However, because prisoners were shipped from England there is often further information in the Home Office records at The National Archives, London (TNA). These records include the transportation registers, 1787-1870, microfilm copies of which (RH4/160/1-7) are available for consultation at West Register House . The registers are arranged chronologically by the date of departure of each ship, and the information given is the name of the convict and where, when and for how many years he was sentenced.

www.nas.gov.uk/guides/crime.asp#transportation

Best wishes
Lesley

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:30 am

Back again Lorna & Lesley,

It was a long sentence for a fairly trivial offence. It makes you wonder how he could have been charged with something like that. The owner knew he had the watch and George knew that the owner knew he had it so it’s not the normal theft scenario. There would surely be a very interesting story behind all that. It’s a shame there was so little in the newspaper. You can get the article here. http://access.gale.com/newstrial/ If you have any problems there let me know and I could send you a copy.

Here’s one of the advantages of having a convict in the family.

“Pyrenees” arrived in Fremantle, Western Australia, on April 30, 1853 with 94 passengers and 293 convicts. http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/c ... n-wa8.html

Name: Pringle
Christian Name(s): George
Reg No: 1840
Term: 7y
Age-S: 38
Trial Place: Edinburgh
Day Mth Year: 23 07 1850
Criminal Offence: ?

See also the physical description link (check I’ve got this right)

Surname: Pringle
Christian Name(s): George
Reg No: 1840
Occupation: watch & clock maker
M/S: W
Child: five
Height: 5' 7 1/2"
Hair: grey
Eyes: grey
Face: round
Complexion: ruddy
Build: stout
Reg No: 1840
Distinguishing Marks: Widower; Broken joint of forefinger on right hand

Alan

Lorna Allison · Post by **Lorna Allison** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:56 pm

Hello Alan

Perhaps a watch could be stolen and noone believed him? Always keen to believe the best of my husband's relatives! I don't suppose he would be literate and maybe receipts for goods already uplifted were not made out? As you say, it would be good to know the background. I shall get in touch with the PRO and see if I can get a copy of the trial records.

I see he went to the Swan River Colony and now I do know that he did arrive there. Would that be very near Fremantle? (MUST get a decent map, been meaning to do that for ages). Would there be a family history group there who might have some info? Trying to stop myself getting too excited!

Can't get into the newspaper site as they want a password. Will pm you my email address. Would very much like to have a copy of the newspaper entry.

The description of George gives a real idea of what he looked like. A deformed right forefinger must have been a drawback to a watchmaker.

Hi Lesley: 16 years - how naughty your relative must have been - maybe he pinched a hen to feed a starving family, tut, tut. Well we may have our problems nowadays but, how thankful I'm feeling for my present existence.

John, George's son, went on to carve a "career" for himself in Glasgow Cleansing Dept. He became an Inspector and his children seem to have been pleased with him. They ended up in 1901 living in North John Street in a flat with 5 rooms having windows! A book published by Glasgow Corporation in 1915 has a big section on the Cleansing Dept and all their wondrouns deeds to keep Glasgow clean and tidy. Then I looked up the pictures held by the Mitchell (under "cleansing"), most taken about 1915, and realised what a "sanitized" version the Corporation had printed. Nevertheless, John's family did him proud, and he also looked after at least one of his siblings until his death.

Thank you both very much for your help and interest.

Regards

Lorna

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:40 pm

Hi Lorna

16 years - how naughty your relative must have been - maybe he pinched a hen to feed a starving family, tut, tut.

Nah, something much more devious than that...
He worked as the Chief accountant & official auditor of a large company, and he embezzled about £10,000 from said company.

His sentence was 14 years, not 16 as I said earlier. (I'd remembered wrongly

)

Best wishes
Lesley

StewL · Post by **StewL** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:54 am

Hi Lorna
I did a quick search for a death for George Pringle and came up empty, I also did a marriage search and came up zero also. So it is possible that either he returned to Scotland or went to another state when he got his ticket of leave.
Justice.wa.gov.au

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:14 am

Lorna,

The password for the newspaper site is on the linked page but it’s not very obvious and a lot of people miss it. It is british.

Poor George Pringle didn’t survive for very long at all. Search for him here:
http://www.fremantleprison.com.au/history/history6.cfm

PRINGLE, George
Convict No: 1840
Ship Name: Pyrenees (Journey 2)
Ship Arrival Date: 30 Apr 1853
Birth Date: 1815
Deceased: 24 Aug 1853
Place of Death: in hospital, delirium tremens
Marital Status: Wid 5 chn
Occupation: watch & clockmaker
Sentence Date: 23 Jul 1850
Sentence Place: Edinburgh
Sentence Province: Midlothian
Sentence Country: Scotland
Court: Ct of Justiciary
Length of Sentence: 7yrs
Ticket of Leave Date: 1 May 1853

Early WA BDMs were very similar to English ones, not very informative, http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html and were introduced in 1841 so why isn’t George’s death here? http://www.justice.wa.gov.au/_apps/pion ... fault.aspx

The Swan River Colony was really just a very early name for Western Australia or at least the settled part of it. The capital, Perth, and the port city of Fremantle are very close together on the Swan River. There’s a history here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... _Australia

Lots of useful Australian research sites here
http://www.coraweb.com.au/

There’s a bit about the ship Pyrenees here
http://www.familiesunearthed.com/reilly/pyrenees.htm

Here’s a few Google books with bits and pieces of info about the voyage etc of the Pyrenees, a search within the first book for Pyrenees may bring up more info
http://www.google.com.au/books?id=pagSA ... 3&as_brr=3
http://www.google.com.au/books?id=ZPQZA ... 3&as_brr=3
http://www.google.com.au/books?id=7GZTm ... 3&as_brr=3

A number of Western Australia newspaper archives will be on line next year, free to view, as part of the Australian Newspapers Digitisation Project http://ndpbeta.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home (beta version for testing). If may be worth checking this when the time comes to see if his name crops up there in 1853.

All the best,
Alan