Information provided to Poor House

Asylums, Poor Houses and the like.

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Allison
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:29 pm
Location: Essex, England

Information provided to Poor House

Post by Allison » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:41 pm

Greetings!
I have just started up working on family tree stuff after a long absence and an international relocation to the UK from Canada.

I was working on my husband's family tree and just had an idea come to me about someone in my family tree. My great-great-grandfather, Joseph Gillespie, stated on several Scottish census that he was born in Ireland on or around 1811. He died in the Greenock Poor House and I was able to identify him as one and the same due to his occupation that being a blacksmith. However, he was blind at the time of death. The informant, being a poor house attendant, provided the information about Joseph's parents.

Where would he have obtained that information and when? At the time that Joseph entered the poorhouse? Or would it be gathered from conversations? Would I be able to access the poorhouse records?

Allison

nelmit
Posts: 4001
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:49 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Information provided to Poor House

Post by nelmit » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:49 pm

Allison wrote:Greetings!
I have just started up working on family tree stuff after a long absence and an international relocation to the UK from Canada.

I was working on my husband's family tree and just had an idea come to me about someone in my family tree. My great-great-grandfather, Joseph Gillespie, stated on several Scottish census that he was born in Ireland on or around 1811. He died in the Greenock Poor House and I was able to identify him as one and the same due to his occupation that being a blacksmith. However, he was blind at the time of death. The informant, being a poor house attendant, provided the information about Joseph's parents.

Where would he have obtained that information and when? At the time that Joseph entered the poorhouse? Or would it be gathered from conversations? Would I be able to access the poorhouse records?

Allison
Hi Allison,

The information would normally be given by the person who was making the application for Poor Relief. So if Joseph applied on his own behalf then the info would have been given by him.

I'm not too sure if the Greenock records survived. You could try contacting http://www.inverclyde.gov.uk/community- ... e/archives

Regards,
Annette

Allison
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:29 pm
Location: Essex, England

Re: Information provided to Poor House

Post by Allison » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:06 pm

Thanks Annette. I'm not sure he would have provided the information himself but I shall follow up on your lead.

Allison

Elwyn 1
Posts: 197
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: Co. Antrim, Ireland

Re: Information provided to Poor House

Post by Elwyn 1 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:16 am

Allison wrote: I'm not sure he would have provided the information himself but I shall follow up on your lead.
I have not seen Scottish Poor Law records, but I have seen plenty Irish ones, and I suspect they were probably identical. If so, a person’s occupation was routinely recorded on their admission to the poor house.

The full information in the admission record was as follows:

Date admitted
Whether previously relieved (under the Poor Law)
Name
Residence
Sex
Age
Marital status
Employment/calling
Religious denomination
Any disabilities
Name of spouse
No of children
General comments
Date of discharge/death

Note: For number of children, I have found that to be the number dependant on them at the time of the application, rather than the number they actually had.
Elwyn

Falkyrn
Posts: 295
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:04 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Information provided to Poor House

Post by Falkyrn » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:38 am

Scottish Poor Law applications had details of family members whether living with the applicant or not - especially if they were adults and the details recorded their marital status the area where they lived and their spouses and number of children (if this was known to the applicant) - primarily I presume this was to ascertain if the money paid out by the parish could be recouped from family members.

The records also held a list of previous addresses for the applicant and the length of time they remained there - again this was probaly down to Residency rules and which Parish paid.

I have just recently looked at one where the applicant "forgot" 3 older children but three years later at a further application they were revealed and there were a few terse comments from the Inspector alongside their details.
~RJ Paton~

nelmit
Posts: 4001
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:49 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Information provided to Poor House

Post by nelmit » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:05 pm

Here is a typical example of an application. The document then goes on with the inspector's report and recommendations.

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/albums/u ... ef_app.jpg

Couple of wee fibs in this one but on the whole fairly truthful. :D

Regards,
Annette

Elwyn 1
Posts: 197
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: Co. Antrim, Ireland

Re: Information provided to Poor House

Post by Elwyn 1 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:31 pm

In Annette's example, the occupation is clearly recorded on the application, so that takes us back to Allison’s query about whether her ancestor would have provided his occupation. This evidence suggests he would have done so.
Elwyn

Allison
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:29 pm
Location: Essex, England

Re: Information provided to Poor House

Post by Allison » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:59 pm

Thanks for all the information. It all leads to another question. As he had two illegitimate daughters would he have been obligated to list them and the woman with whom he had those children?

Allison

yogihughes
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: Information provided to Poor House

Post by yogihughes » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:59 am

From my experience of transcribing the "poor law" records applicants gave the minimum information required by the authorities. If the information regarding a "mistress" and 2 illegitimate children was going to hinder his application for relief then they would be conveniently forgotten unless someone "grassed him up". I suppose it depended on how ruthless the poor house interviewer was on the initial application.

Falkyrn
Posts: 295
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:04 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Information provided to Poor House

Post by Falkyrn » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:08 pm

yogihughes wrote:From my experience of transcribing the "poor law" records applicants gave the minimum information required by the authorities. If the information regarding a "mistress" and 2 illegitimate children was going to hinder his application for relief then they would be conveniently forgotten unless someone "grassed him up". I suppose it depended on how ruthless the poor house interviewer was on the initial application.
I would agree, having found another branch of one of my lines in the Poor Law Applications. In 1860 he applied for relief, which was granted and gave family details - in 1863 when he applied again either he blundered or the Inspector found out some other way but 3 adult children appeared in the record along with a few comments from the Inspector.
~RJ Paton~

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