Master Carter
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Master Carter
Hi Everyone
One of my lot described himself as a Master Carter on an OPR Baptism - I know that a Carter was someone who drove a cart - and perhaps was lucky enough to own it. By how would anyone be a 'Master' Carter? I thought that to be a Master of anything was related to a trade recognised by the Crafts Guild - which surely cart drivers wouldn't be involved in.
Any suggestions gratefully received
Ted
One of my lot described himself as a Master Carter on an OPR Baptism - I know that a Carter was someone who drove a cart - and perhaps was lucky enough to own it. By how would anyone be a 'Master' Carter? I thought that to be a Master of anything was related to a trade recognised by the Crafts Guild - which surely cart drivers wouldn't be involved in.
Any suggestions gratefully received
Ted
Looking for Allan / Gordon / Troup / McInnes / Grant / Taylor / Jackson from Aberdeen (city & shire) & Banffshire
Alexander / Allan / Stewart in W Lothian
Allan / Burnett in USA and Canada / Davidson & Philp in Fife and Lanarkshire
Alexander / Allan / Stewart in W Lothian
Allan / Burnett in USA and Canada / Davidson & Philp in Fife and Lanarkshire
Re: Master Carter
Hi Ted
I think there was a lot more to being a carter than we realise now in the age of diesel and petrol but some remnants remain from the days of the' horse and cart' and I think these three words sum up a simplistic view of the carter with his trusty horse. We refer ( or used to ) to power of a cars engine as xx horse power. The master carter had to think of the actual power of a horse, the size of the load, the type of cart which would be used, the route which they would have to take (avoiding hills for example); would trace horses be required at any point?
There were many varieties of cart. We tend to think either of the large wheeled box affair a farmer would use or the flat bed cart latterly used by rag and bone men. As recently as the end of WWll there were three or four types of delivery wagon ranging from the simple flat bed through long low loaders to huge box bodied furniture vans. the small ones needed one horse but the heavier brewers drays needed a pair of horse. The huge furniture vans needed three or four horses hitched up.
Farmers used box bodied two wheeled carts for carrying the tatties in after harvest, flat low loaders to transport the hay ricks, open sided carts to transport the hay after reaping.
Horse trams often needed assistance if they were on an up-hill route so a second, or trace horse with a boy would be stationed ready to be hitched up.
Horses came in different weights and strengths too so the master carter needed to be able to assess the capacity of the horses he bought or cared for.
He had to be able to treat the various ails horses succumb to.
Harness wasn't 'One size fits all'. so he had to know about different types and their maintenance and repair, chain strengths, shafts, cart wheels, when to call the farrier.........
I lived in farming country but spent time in the city looking out over a transport stables so I saw most aspects of working horse care and it was no sinecure.
Driving a cart in comparison was easy. Just tell the horse 'Home' and he would take you there. Not quite but certainly less demanding than driving on todays frenetic motorways.
Russell
I think there was a lot more to being a carter than we realise now in the age of diesel and petrol but some remnants remain from the days of the' horse and cart' and I think these three words sum up a simplistic view of the carter with his trusty horse. We refer ( or used to ) to power of a cars engine as xx horse power. The master carter had to think of the actual power of a horse, the size of the load, the type of cart which would be used, the route which they would have to take (avoiding hills for example); would trace horses be required at any point?
There were many varieties of cart. We tend to think either of the large wheeled box affair a farmer would use or the flat bed cart latterly used by rag and bone men. As recently as the end of WWll there were three or four types of delivery wagon ranging from the simple flat bed through long low loaders to huge box bodied furniture vans. the small ones needed one horse but the heavier brewers drays needed a pair of horse. The huge furniture vans needed three or four horses hitched up.
Farmers used box bodied two wheeled carts for carrying the tatties in after harvest, flat low loaders to transport the hay ricks, open sided carts to transport the hay after reaping.
Horse trams often needed assistance if they were on an up-hill route so a second, or trace horse with a boy would be stationed ready to be hitched up.
Horses came in different weights and strengths too so the master carter needed to be able to assess the capacity of the horses he bought or cared for.
He had to be able to treat the various ails horses succumb to.
Harness wasn't 'One size fits all'. so he had to know about different types and their maintenance and repair, chain strengths, shafts, cart wheels, when to call the farrier.........
I lived in farming country but spent time in the city looking out over a transport stables so I saw most aspects of working horse care and it was no sinecure.
Driving a cart in comparison was easy. Just tell the horse 'Home' and he would take you there. Not quite but certainly less demanding than driving on todays frenetic motorways.
Russell
Working on: Oman, Brock, Miller/Millar, in Caithness.
Roan/Rowan, Hastings, Sharp, Lapraik in Ayr & Kirkcudbrightshire.
Johnston, Reside, Lyle all over the place !
McGilvray(spelt 26 different ways)
Watson, Morton, Anderson, Tawse, in Kilrenny
Roan/Rowan, Hastings, Sharp, Lapraik in Ayr & Kirkcudbrightshire.
Johnston, Reside, Lyle all over the place !
McGilvray(spelt 26 different ways)
Watson, Morton, Anderson, Tawse, in Kilrenny
Re: Master Carter
Hello Ted,
I guess that in common usage a carter employing other carters would be a master carter. How else would a carter running a carting business describe himself?
It seems there were master porters as well. Here’s something from “A Treatise on the Law of Master and Servant”, 1860. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=O7c ... 22&f=false It sounds like the porter only did the porting and the carter only did the carting.
“In that case the defendant, who was a warehouseman at Liverpool, had employed a master porter to remove some barrels of flour from his warehouse. The master porter used his own tackle, and brought and paid his own men, but employed a master carter to carry the barrels away, and the master carter brought his own carts and men, one of whom was the plaintiff”
The occupation appears hundreds of times in the 19C newspapers and a number of times in the Edinburgh Gazette, probably mainly to do with sequestrations. http://www.edinburgh-gazette.co.uk/issu ... er/start=1
According to this American site “master carter is a term used for one who cut and hauled log masts” although maybe that’s just a local thing?
http://oldberwick.org/index.php?option= ... &Itemid=66
Hope that’s useful,
Alan
I guess that in common usage a carter employing other carters would be a master carter. How else would a carter running a carting business describe himself?
It seems there were master porters as well. Here’s something from “A Treatise on the Law of Master and Servant”, 1860. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=O7c ... 22&f=false It sounds like the porter only did the porting and the carter only did the carting.
“In that case the defendant, who was a warehouseman at Liverpool, had employed a master porter to remove some barrels of flour from his warehouse. The master porter used his own tackle, and brought and paid his own men, but employed a master carter to carry the barrels away, and the master carter brought his own carts and men, one of whom was the plaintiff”
The occupation appears hundreds of times in the 19C newspapers and a number of times in the Edinburgh Gazette, probably mainly to do with sequestrations. http://www.edinburgh-gazette.co.uk/issu ... er/start=1
According to this American site “master carter is a term used for one who cut and hauled log masts” although maybe that’s just a local thing?
http://oldberwick.org/index.php?option= ... &Itemid=66
Hope that’s useful,
Alan
Re: Master Carter
Russell
Many thanks for the detailed and interesting response - that clears things up for me. The period in question was in the 1830's and my ancestor owned a few properties as well and I did suspect that the 'master' element would mean that he had employees etc.
Alan
Thanks too for your input and the interesting links you sent - much appreciated
Ted
Many thanks for the detailed and interesting response - that clears things up for me. The period in question was in the 1830's and my ancestor owned a few properties as well and I did suspect that the 'master' element would mean that he had employees etc.
Alan
Thanks too for your input and the interesting links you sent - much appreciated
Ted
Looking for Allan / Gordon / Troup / McInnes / Grant / Taylor / Jackson from Aberdeen (city & shire) & Banffshire
Alexander / Allan / Stewart in W Lothian
Allan / Burnett in USA and Canada / Davidson & Philp in Fife and Lanarkshire
Alexander / Allan / Stewart in W Lothian
Allan / Burnett in USA and Canada / Davidson & Philp in Fife and Lanarkshire
Re: Master Carter
This has been a bit of an eye opener regarding carters! I have generations of carters right up to my grandfather who ended his working life as the rag and bone man after a lifetime of carting! He spent the majority of his time as a brewery drayman and my dad has photos of him from the 50's. I have at least 4 generations within his family!
Thank you
Annie
Thank you
Annie
Searching: Pow - Stirlingshire, Pender - Paisley, Gray - Alva, Paisley, Elderslie, Canning - Stirling, Morrison, Innes and Wilson - Glasgow to name a few!
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www.dundeereptheatre.co.uk home to Scotland's only full time ensemble
Re: Master Carter
Hi Annie
Brewery draymen were probably the top of the carting hierarchy. They represented their brewery so cart and horse had to look good at all times.The ones I have seen wore leather aprons and always looked smart. The cart was decorated with the brewery name often on a board just behind and above the driver.
The beer barrels were held in place with wedges so they wouldn't roll off and when they reached the pub they unslung a big bag of straw onto which they rolled the barrels. A soft landing didn't break the barrel staves. Many pubs had cellars which had an opening on the pavement in the street. They would put broad slings under the barrel so it could be rolled down a pair of planks into the cellar where it would rest while any sediment settled.
Empty barrels were brought out in much the same way.
Many dairies and distillers also used heavy horse and, like the ploughmen out in the country, there was a lot of competition to see who could add brasses and plumes to the various bits of harness to make their rig look better than anyone else's.
They took a lot of pride in their work back then.
Russell
Brewery draymen were probably the top of the carting hierarchy. They represented their brewery so cart and horse had to look good at all times.The ones I have seen wore leather aprons and always looked smart. The cart was decorated with the brewery name often on a board just behind and above the driver.
The beer barrels were held in place with wedges so they wouldn't roll off and when they reached the pub they unslung a big bag of straw onto which they rolled the barrels. A soft landing didn't break the barrel staves. Many pubs had cellars which had an opening on the pavement in the street. They would put broad slings under the barrel so it could be rolled down a pair of planks into the cellar where it would rest while any sediment settled.
Empty barrels were brought out in much the same way.
Many dairies and distillers also used heavy horse and, like the ploughmen out in the country, there was a lot of competition to see who could add brasses and plumes to the various bits of harness to make their rig look better than anyone else's.
They took a lot of pride in their work back then.
Russell
Working on: Oman, Brock, Miller/Millar, in Caithness.
Roan/Rowan, Hastings, Sharp, Lapraik in Ayr & Kirkcudbrightshire.
Johnston, Reside, Lyle all over the place !
McGilvray(spelt 26 different ways)
Watson, Morton, Anderson, Tawse, in Kilrenny
Roan/Rowan, Hastings, Sharp, Lapraik in Ayr & Kirkcudbrightshire.
Johnston, Reside, Lyle all over the place !
McGilvray(spelt 26 different ways)
Watson, Morton, Anderson, Tawse, in Kilrenny
Re: Master Carter
The only horse-drawn carters that I remember were the Co-op milkmen. Our milkman had a harder job when the horse was retired and he was given a lorry. The horse moved on from door to door with little effort from the milkman, as it knew the delivery round. Easier than him climbing into the lorry cab to move it on a short distance.
Also the gardeners of the area lost a source of fresh manure.
All the best,
AndrewP
Also the gardeners of the area lost a source of fresh manure.
All the best,
AndrewP
Re: Master Carter
I remember the milk being delivered by horse and cart. Weren't the stables in Grove Street?
researching Glacken, in Edinburgh and Glasgow and Ireland, McCartney and McAnally in Glasgow, Belli in Italy and Edinburgh, O'farrel in Tyrone and edinburgh, Mchendrie, Dawson and Findlay from Banff then Edinburgh, Main in Edinburgh. Mcdonald.
Re: Master Carter
Yes, the (St Cuthbert's Co-operative Association) stables were in Grove Street. I remember being taken there with my primary school class (early 1970s).hg wrote:I remember the milk being delivered by horse and cart. Weren't the stables in Grove Street?
All the best,
AndrewP
Re: Master Carter
Hi All
This topic intrigued me and got me wondering whether my memories of sixty years ago were accurate or had been modified over time.
I found a great site for road vehicles (with info about bikes tagged on ) at http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/00-app1/rthdbike.htm.
To find out more about farm carts you would have to decide which area of the country you wanted to explore as every district appears to have their own variety with some fascinating names for each type of cart.
Russell
This topic intrigued me and got me wondering whether my memories of sixty years ago were accurate or had been modified over time.
I found a great site for road vehicles (with info about bikes tagged on ) at http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/00-app1/rthdbike.htm.
To find out more about farm carts you would have to decide which area of the country you wanted to explore as every district appears to have their own variety with some fascinating names for each type of cart.
Russell
Working on: Oman, Brock, Miller/Millar, in Caithness.
Roan/Rowan, Hastings, Sharp, Lapraik in Ayr & Kirkcudbrightshire.
Johnston, Reside, Lyle all over the place !
McGilvray(spelt 26 different ways)
Watson, Morton, Anderson, Tawse, in Kilrenny
Roan/Rowan, Hastings, Sharp, Lapraik in Ayr & Kirkcudbrightshire.
Johnston, Reside, Lyle all over the place !
McGilvray(spelt 26 different ways)
Watson, Morton, Anderson, Tawse, in Kilrenny