Willy Barr, bro-in-law of John Little, Glasgow

[littlealison]

Hello again, folks.
This follows on in a way from 'Bottlemakers in Glasgow - next generation'. (By the way, I now know a lot more about John Little the son - anyone interested, contact me).

John Little Jnr's wife was Isabella or Isobel Barr, born probably 1849. She came from Glasgow, so did he, but they married in Dublin in 1871. I think I have traced her to Troon in 1871. My father had her on the tree he made as coming from Troon. I have a record of her and her brother (I think) at 'Thrushgrove Cottage, Glasgow' in 1851. This fits our info. After that it gets a bit hazy. That's one uncertain area.

The other is her brother, William Barr, supposedly born in 1847 in Glasgow.
The family story is that he was a Clyde skipper. I have found three William Barrs born 1846 and 1847, variously in Newhaven, Ireland and Paisley, all in shipping in some way, and I can't connect them with the one in our family!
I have two born in Glasgow in 1846 and 1850, who don't connect with ships in any way.....
I would really like to know if we are related to Capt Barr of the 'Edinburgh Castle'. - Alison.

[Currie]

Hello Alison,

Glasgow Herald, Wednesday, January 17, 1883
DEATHS.
BARR.—At 6 Clyde Grove Terrace, Govan Road, on the 16th inst. William Barr, marine engineer, elder son of Captain William Barr, steamer “Edinburgh Castle.” —Friends will please accept of this intimation.

Is that any help? A search for “Captain William Barr” in the 19C newspapers brings up other interesting odds and ends. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15443

All the best,
Alan

[nelmit]

Here is William, as transcribed at Ancestry, (who died in 1882) in 1871-

William Barr 24 born Newhaven, Stirlingshire, Maine Engine Fitter
Elizabeth Barr 24
Mary A Barr 1

He married Elizabeth Graham Turner in 1869 at Glasgow.

Here is the family in 1861 at Eglinton Street -

William Barr 39 Master Mariner, born Craignish, Argyle
Margret Barr 34
William Barr 12 born Newhaven, Edinburgh
Robert Barr 10
Margret Barr 9
Martha Barr 6
John Barr 5
James Barr 1

William Barr and Margaret Boag's children from the IGI -

1. JAMES BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 30 MAY 1859 Tradeston, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
2. MARTHA BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 09 JUL 1854 Gorbals, Lanark, Scotland
3. WILLIAM COUTTS BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 12 NOV 1848 Newhaven, North Leith, Midlothian, Scotland
4. MATTHEW BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 23 JUL 1847 Newhaven, North Leith, Midlothian, Scotland
5. ROBERT BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 17 JUL 1850 Newhaven, North Leith, Midlothian, Scotland
6. ROBERT BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 07 JUL 1850 North Leith, Midlothian, Scotland
7. MARGARET BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 07 MAR 1852 North Leith, Midlothian, Scotland
8. JOHN BOAG BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 02 MAY 1856 Tradeston, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland

Regards,
Annette

[littlealison]

Hi there, Alan and Annette:
I have done some exhaustive searches both of censuses and of the British Library (invaluable for Glasgow, and especially Dublin!):
This is the one record, found by Kirsty here, that fits our family information:

Living in Thrushgrove Cottage, Glasgow in 1851:
Archibald Barr, born in Cathcart, Renfrewshire about 1809
Isabella, born in Glasgow about 1821, his second wife.
Margaret, born in Neilston, Renfrewshire about 1835
Jean – born in Neilston, Renfrewshire about 1840 ............... (obvious move to Glasgow here)
Archibald, born in Glasgow about 1841
William, born in Glasgow about 1847
Isabella - born in Glasgow about 1850
My father had Isabella, Willy and Jean in the family.

The William Barr born about 1822 is called Captain and his son is the marine engineer, right? The son died early, but could he have been the one, because his father was William not Archibald.
Also in the 1871 Census is another Willliam, b 1847, living in Glasgow, a ship's draughtsman, but he is down as born in Ireland.
In the 1891 census is another William Barr born in Paisley 1846, a shipwright.
The extra problem with a mariner is that he may not have been home for the census, as I have found with an Irish relative.

I will add everything to my file, and go on thinking! Thanks for your searches - Alison.

[nelmit]

Hi there, Alan and Annette:
I have done some exhaustive searches both of censuses and of the British Library (invaluable for Glasgow, and especially Dublin!):
This is the one record, found by Kirsty here, that fits our family information:

Living in Thrushgrove Cottage, Glasgow in 1851:
Archibald Barr, born in Cathcart, Renfrewshire about 1809
Isabella, born in Glasgow about 1821, his second wife.
Margaret, born in Neilston, Renfrewshire about 1835
Jean – born in Neilston, Renfrewshire about 1840 ............... (obvious move to Glasgow here)
Archibald, born in Glasgow about 1841
William, born in Glasgow about 1847
Isabella - born in Glasgow about 1850
My father had Isabella, Willy and Jean in the family.

The William Barr born about 1822 is called Captain and his son is the marine engineer, right? The son died early, but could he have been the one, because his father was William not Archibald.

William Barr born 1822, father of William, Marine engineer, 1847-1882 is almost certainly the one found by Alan who was the Captain of the 'Edinburgh Castle' with no sign of an Isabella in the family.

Here they are in 1851 at Newhaven -

William Barr 29 Steam Boat Steward Poulterer
Margaret Barr 24
Mathew Barr 3
William Barr 2
Robert Barr 9 MO
Janet Boag 64

Regards,
Annette

[littlealison]

Actually my thoughts haven't got very far!
EITHER
The 1851 record is right and William brother of Isabella is not the Clyde Captain, in which case someone in my family has got confused or misled, and assumed that the Capt Barr they heard of was our Willy Barr, when he wasn't. (But he still may have had something to do with ships on the Clyde.)

OR - He was one or other of the William Barrs found (or yet another, with a sister Isabella) and the 1851 record is not the right one.

I had hoped I could trace both him and his sister (my ggmother) via his occupation.....but it seems I am left with my father's records which just don't give enough facts:

William, Isabella and Jean, siblings.
(Probably born in Glasgow - her marriage to John Little who lived most of his young life in Glasgow . Or maybe not.) ...............No birth dates. Isabella maybe was born or was living in Troon.

The first definite date I have is the marriage in Dublin. I'm not dead sure of that!
Her death certificate would be in South Africa. No info there yet.
Any ideas, anyone? - Alison

[nelmit]

The only perhaps, maybe connection I can see is.....................

The Isabella Barr who was living at Troon in 1871 was born around 1844 at Glasgow.

In 1851 there is this family at 272 George St, Glasgow (I can't find them on any other census) -

Alexander Barr 33 Master Fishmonger, Born Sandy Bank, Argyllshire
Isabella Barr 27
Matthew Barr 4
Isabella Barr 7 Born Glasgow
John Barr 3
Elizabeth B Barr 2
Alison Daly 17
Jean Wilson 28
Isabella Neilson 68

There is a Sandbank at Dunoon which brings me to this -

Results for: Father: Matthew Barr, Mother: Elizabeth Neilson

1. MATHEW BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 13 SEP 1812 Houston And Killellan, Renfrew, Scotland
2. ARCHIBALD BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 17 DEC 1810 Houston And Killellan, Renfrew, Scotland
3. ALEXANDER BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 10 JUL 1814 Port Glasgow, Renfrew, Scotland
4. ALEXANDER BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 22 FEB 1818 Dunoon And Kilmun, Argyll, Scotland
5. ELIZABETH BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 20 AUG 1819 Kilmodan, Argyll, Scotland
6. JOHN BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 02 OCT 1808 Abbey (Paisley), Renfrew, Scotland
7. MARGRAT BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 16 NOV 1834 Hutchesontown Relief Church, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
8. Margaret BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: About 1822 Renfrew, Renfrew, Scotland
9. WILLIAM BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 05 AUG 1821 Craignish, Argyll, Scotland
10. JANET BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 15 APR 1827 Craignish, Argyll, Scotland
11. JAMES BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 11 JAN 1824 Craignish, Argyll, Scotland
12. MARY BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 18 JAN 1829 Craignish, Argyll, Scotland

So I think the Isabella born 1844 Glasgow on the 1851 census is William Barr's (the Captain of the Edinburgh Castle) niece.

Now whether or not she is your Isabella is another story. The 1871 marriage should give you her father's name and maybe her age.

Regards,
Annette

[littlealison]

I think this makes a lot of sense - but will have to look it over in the morning when I am less tired!
Thank you - Alison.
PS I will also send it to my sister!

[littlealison]

This is my sister's response and subsequent discussion:

Hilary: I'd be surprised if the family memories are wrong, for several reasons. The "Uncle Willie" and the Clyde steamers are consistent across two or three records, my notes (mid to late 1950s) from what Gran Little said, Dad's notes and Uncle Fred.
OK, they all would have come from the same origin, but it wasn't that far back in the family, Grandpa Little could quite easily have known his uncle Willie, as could Gran.
- Also, all the other things in these we've found to be correct.

Alison: Couldn't he have been called 'Uncle Willy' because he was Isabella's Uncle Willy ?

Hilary: That's definitely a possibility. Especially as for some reason I've listed "Tom, Winnie, Alex" as "uncles" then "Uncle Willie" separately. It definitely looks like "Winnie" not "Willie" in the first line, not sure what that would be short for (Winston?!). It seemed so definite (whether he was uncle or great-uncle) that he was a captain on those steamers, and we do have records of a Willie Barr on both of them, don't we?
(No Winston ).

Alison; This list from Annette also includes Archibald b 1810, who could well be the one in the 1851 census, with the three right children....I have to query this with Annette, I see she picked on Alexander because the Isabella seems the right age for the Troon one - but I have been searching and there are 8 possible Isabellas in the next generation. Thinking of sending for the marriage cert.

Any of these Isabellas would have had an uncle Willy Barr, Captain....I think we have to have that certificate. - Alison

[littlealison]

Me again.
I thought people might be interested in some info about Willy Barr's boats.
I've found online:
"Gironde et Garonne - Elle a été construite en 1865 par Henderson Coulborn & Co à Renfrew (numéro de construction 77) pour William Barr, Glasgow. (on a French site)
Rothesay Castle, 1865, Henderson, Colbourne & Co.,
Carrick Castle - this little iron built steamer was launched on 30 April 1870 and was the only paddler built by Fullertons for passenger service on the Clyde. Her Captain, William Barr also had a role in the superintending of her building.
Lord of the Isles - Builders: D & W Henderson, Partick 1877
Edinburgh Castle - Builders: R Duncan & Co, Port Glasgow 1879".

Also: http://www.glasgowhistory.com/broomielaw.html has lots of old pictures of boats on the Clyde, including three of the Carrick Castle.