Maggie McIver mystery

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:47 am

Hi all,

Because I am distantly related by marriage to well-known Maggie Russell/McIver of the Barras, I decided to try and find out a bit more about her.

On the online webpages about her and the Barras, it always describes her as the daughter of an Ayrshire policeman. From her marriage registration to James McIver in 1902, her father's name was Thomas, and mother was Margaret Sclanders (looks more like Selandon....but the mother's death confirmed it as the former name).

Well, if I have the right Margaret Russell, she never said her father was a policeman on her marriage registration or her mother's death regisration. He was 1) a Labourer and 2) a Causeway Layer.

I checked the censuses at Ancestry and there is NO Thomas Russell who was a policeman at the times of the censuses. I can't find the man's death registration, nor a marriage between him and Margaret Sclanders. This has become a bit of a mystery for me. Anyone want to help me solve it?

Nina

Post by **SarahND** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:17 pm

Hi Nina,
I decided to go at this from another direction to see what happened. On a website I found, it said that Maggie's mother was a French Polisher. So I searched in the 1891 for any Russells with the occupation of French* and came up with an 11 year old Margaret. Her mother is a hawker and the father nowhere to be found. The website I found has her marrying at age 17, so she should be a bit younger in 1891, but I wouldn't be surprised if her age was off in later reports...

1891
29 Norman St, Bridgeton, Glasgow Barony, Lanarkshire
Jane Finlayson, 50, Head, born Inverary, Argyleshire, French Polisher
Christina Finlayson, 16, Daur, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire, French Polisher
Margaret Russell, 36, Boarder, born Ayr, Ayrshire, Hawker
Margaret Russell, 11, Boarder, born Ayr, Ayrshire, French Polisher

Going backwards to 1881, Mother Margaret is a French Polisher in 1881-- still no sign of father Thomas, but a son Thomas is there:

1881
3, Love St, Paisley Middle Church, Paisley, Renfrewshire
Margt Russell, 25, Head, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire, French Polisher
Thomas Russell, 2, Son, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Margt Russell, 4 Mo, Daughter, born Galston Ayrshire

In 1881 I find three Police Constables with the last name of Russell who are lodgers and are not with their families. But none are named Thomas... They are Alexander age 26, in Ayr
Donald age 26 in Kilmore & Kilbride, Argyll
John age 21 in Glasgow Hutchesontown

What do you think? Does this family look promising?
I'll keep digging.
Sarah

Post by **SarahND** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:49 pm

Those Russells are in the right place, anyway (Bridgeton) so perhaps it is the right family? There is another little twist... In 1901 it looks as if Margaret the younger has had a baby:

1901
29 Franklin St, Glasgow Bridgeton, Lanarkshire
Margaret Russell, 44, Head, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire, French Polisher
Margaret Russell, 21, Daur, born Galston, Ayrshire, French Polisher
Chrigton Russell, 7 Mo, Grand Daur, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire

In the marriage record you found, were both her parents living, or was her father already deceased?

All the best,
Sarah

Post by **SarahND** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:28 pm

Okay... I couldn't resist looking and the Margaret I have been tracking was born 27 Nov 1880 in Loudoun, Ayr and was illegitimate. Mother Margaret Russell, Furniture Polisher, no father's name given. So hmmm. Perhaps her father was a police constable but his last name was not Russell? Or perhaps his name was Thomas and he was not a police constable...

There are a couple of police constables named Thomas... I like this one in the Cormack household:

1881
21 Tobago St, Calton, Glasgow Barony, Lanarkshire
Thomas Clark, 33, Boarder, born Kirkoswald, Ayrshire, Police Constable

Or this one, only he has another family... but he was born in Galston and is living in Renfrew. Since Margaret was born in Galston (well, Loudoun, but just next door) and is living in Renfrewshire in 1881, perhaps she was conceived on one of Thomas' trips home to visit the family?

1881
Smith's Land Ferry Road Head, Renfrew, Renfrewshier
Thomas Hall, 34, Head, born Galston, Ayrshire, Police Constable
Elizabeth Hall, 30
Elizabeth W Hall, 6
Thomas Hall, 5
John Hall, 2
James Hall, 2 Mo

But of course there is absolutely no way to prove who Margaret's father was since it is not on her birth certificate

Well, I must fix dinner. Let me know if you think I am way off base. I realise this is not fitting in with the Margaret Sclanders story

Sarah

Post by **SarahND** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:39 pm

Aha!!! Look at this birth from the IGI:

Margaret Sclanders Russell
Birth: 02 JAN 1856 Tradeston, Glasgow, Lanark
Father: William Russell
Mother: Creighton Mills

Right year and place to be Margaret Russell the French Polisher

Okay... now I'll really go get dinner ready

Sarah

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:55 pm

Don't think it helps any but this family has been discussed before on TS.

http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ght=mciver

I remember because my dad was the resident singer at Barrowland Ballroom in the 60's and I was introduced to Mrs McIver when I was a wee girl. Whether or not it was THE Mrs McIver I don't know.

Kind regards,
Annette

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:15 am

Hi and thanks to all who replied.

Sarah, once again you have found the goods, and confirmed what I was seeing. I think I had found mother and daughter on the 1891 and 1901 but couldn't find them on the 1881 (hoping to find them with the father - no luck). I had a strong feeling that young Margaret was illegitimate, but didn't find her mother at the IGI. I think I only looked in Ayrshire. So thanks for that!!

I feel like I am somehow smashing the legend of an icon here...her biographies all say the same thing, and so not one person is likely to have confirmed anything with the appropriate registrations. Even the detail that she married at the 'tender age of 17' in 1898 is incorrect. In fact she married in 1902 at the age of 21. So somewhere along the line, the story of her life was embellished and amended, perhaps for respectability, given that she was illegitimate and may have had some shame about it, and then as a way to explain the age of her own daughter, she put the year of her marriage back a few years.

While I have come across these inconsistencies many times in my research, I feel saddened because so many think they 'know' Maggie's background, and in fact it was harsher than they knew. That she did so well in the end is a credit to her. Her own descendants may not even know the truth. Certainly no-one on the internet seem to have researched her at all, and neither have a link to her anyway!

Oh heavens, I can't be the only one who has ever found this out can I? So...now I wonder is it worth doing anything about this, given that there are a few webpages with erroneous information out there, or do I just let it lie? As a genealogist I want to go for accuracy...but then....

Nina

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:57 am

Hmmm. I also wonder what happened to wee Thomas on the 1881. He wasn't with them in 1891, so I was looking for deaths. None in Renfrew, five in Lanark, and none of them him. I guess I will try to find him on the 1891 when I get time, and also a marriage or later death just to see who was named as his father, if anyone.

Post by **SarahND** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:22 am

Hi Nina,
I know what you mean. I, too, was beginning to feel uncomfortable about uncovering long-held secrets. I have found this before with a well-known member of my own family. The entry for him in the Dictionary of National Biography is full of errors, and all the biographers copied those errors without checking anything. It turned out, of course, that the truth was a bit more sordid than the fiction that grew up around it... In that case, however, I am waiting until I have as full a story as I can find, before making people aware of the revised version

Are you in touch with any direct descendants of Maggie? I don't want to offend anyone who would rather put the lid on it, but in the case of a public figure, one really doesn't have much choice in the matter. As you say, she had an even harder life than people know-- shouldn't that fact be known? From the vantage point of today's society, the illegitimacy is of very little consequence, although it was a scandal at the time.

All the best,
Sarah

Post by **SarahND** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:18 pm

Hi again,
I can't help myself from researching in all directions, so going backwards from what we have already found, which seems a less controversial direction... here's Margaret Russell (mother of Maggie) in 1861. Her father seems to have died or not be around.

1861
25 Oak St, Anderston, Glasgow Barony, Lanarkshire
Mary Gray, 44, Head, born Grangemouth, Stirling, Dress Maker
Julia Gray, 30, Sister, born Grangemouth, Stirling, Dress Maker
Chrichton Russell, 39, Boarder, born Grangemouth, Stirling, Darner in Wpholskry Warchome

Margaret Russell, 5, Boarder, born Glasgow, Lanark

I can't reliably find Margaret in 1871. There is a "Nurse (mander)" in Kirkintilloch. born 1856 in Glasgow who might be her, but if so, she is doing something quite different from what she did later. It appears that she had a hard life also, since I think her mother was dead before 1871.

There are 3 christina russells who died in 1869-70 in Lanarkshire, who were born 1822 +/- 5 years
There is one Chrichton Russell, born 1824, who died in Dunoon, Argyll in 1869. Not sure what she was doing in Dunoon... but there is only one Chrichton Russell in 1861 and she is Margaret's mother... so maybe it IS her? Or maybe she is indexed under Christina as above.

On the birth cert for Margaret Sclanders Russell, her father William appears to be a news agent (doesn't fit with the "carpenter" on her death cert, does it

k Here is a possible one in 1851, living alone.

1851
38 Nelson St, Gorbals, Lanarkshire
William Russell, 45, Head, born Glasgow, Lanark, News Agent

Backing up a bit to get to the bottom of the Sclanders name, the following marriage looks hopeful. From the IGI:

Margaret Sclanders married John Mill 12 Sep 1814 in Glasgow, Lanark

Surely these are the parents of Chrichton Mill, although there doesn't seem to be an OPR for her birth. There are no existing OPRs for Grangemouth (her birthplace in the 1861) during the time she would have been born. But, the three children given for this couple that do appear on the IGI were born in Falkirk, Stirling, so they were living in Stirling, despite the marriage in Glasgow.

Father: John Mill
Mother: Margaret Sclanders
JACOBINA MILL Christening 15 OCT 1815 Falkirk, Stirling
JEAN MILL Christening 09 MAR 1817 Falkirk, Stirling
MARGARET MILL Christening 24 JAN 1819 Falkirk, Stirling

And this is possibly Chrichton/Christina in 1841:

1841
Nether Hangingshaw, Culter, Lanarkshire
Peter Watson, 45, born Lanarkshire, Farmer
Mary Watson, 35, born Scotland
Jean Watson, 1, born Lanarkshire
Elizabeth French, 25, born Lanarkshire, FS
Janet French, 15, born Lanarkshire, FS
Margaret Smith, 20, born Lanarkshire, FS
Christina Mill, 19, born Scotland, FS
Marion Russel, 13, born Lanarkshire, FS

Is that Marion Russel a future in-law of sorts? Or perhaps just coincidence.

Well, that's my contribution for this morning

Regards,
Sarah