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Charles Edward Kidd's death
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 12:52 am
Charles Edward Kidd (b. 1870 Edinburgh according to IGI) married Mary Hyslop Carson in 1896. In 1905 she married again to Andrew Fleming, by declaration, calling herself a spinster, though the certificate does have a RCE notification on it, so that may have been changed to widow. I have both certificates.
My problem is that I cannot find a death for Charles Kidd anywhere! The ones on SP have incorrect parents (his are Charles Frederick Kidd and Ann Milne). He must have died before 1905 for her to marry again, or maybe they divorced, but there is no record at the NAS.
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:29 am
i you search from 1900 -1955 there are some 48 Charles Kidd's but there is only 1 Charles Edward Kidd listed died 1917 in Dundee GROS No 282/040624 although the age does not match, maybe worth a look if you have not already done so.
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:01 pm
I did look at that one, and no he isn't mine. I have searched between 1896-1955 in all of Scotland, without luck, though of course I have not looked at them all, for to do so would be too expensive.
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:29 pm
I too looked at a few DCs and have had no luck. I'm wondering what is the last time you have a confirmed sighting of him......I looked in Irvine for 1901 census but didn't see them...other Kidd's but not them. Did Charles and Mary have any children? If so then you might be able to confirm he was dead by a certain date according to a child's MC info. You also might want to confirm just what the RCE in connectin with Mary's remarriage really does say. I'm wondering if Charles just sort of left town (and country)
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:33 pm
The last confirmed sighting was his wedding! I have Mary living back at home in the 1901 census using Mary Carson (not unusual I gather) but stating she is married, and she has no children with her.
The four Kidd births for Irvine Ayr do not seem likely; I did check Ellen Kidd, born 1897, but she isn't mine. If I search for Kidd births Ayrshire I get 63 births, so not practical to purchase all, and even using traditional naming patterns, nothing screams out at me. Not even likely deaths for babies between 1896-1901.
But oh dear....on reviewing my records I found that Mary had a child in 1899...Elizabeth Crombie Carson, born to Mary Carson and stated as being illegitimate!!! Born at the same address as where she lived in 1901. But where did the child go, as I can't find HER death either! And where did Charles go?
I am wondering of he went off to the Boer War and was still away in the 1901 census, and perhaps died or just didn't come home. Or he ran off with this child Elizabeth? Ugh!
Mary had a rather chequered past before marrying Charles. She had two illegitimate children, both of whom died before their marriage (one three months before the marriage, so he must have known...) And then after he died or disappeared she married in 1905, and again in 1927. I guess she didn't like to be alone....
Sorry for all the detail, but it may help unravel the story!
Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:36 pm
Wish I had good news but nothing!
Did you notice that on Mary's DC the informant is a sister that seems to know the story of Mary's life pretty well....all 3 hubbies are there!! She seemed to recall Charles was a jockey and she called their father a racehorse owner. All other references to their father call him a General Dealer. This informant also seems to think that Mary was widowed by Charles Kidd. What kind of racing circuit did they have in Irvine area Ayrshire in the early 1900's? Maybe Charles death is related to his employment?? I can't explain the disappearance of wee Elizabeth though. I seriously doubt Charles would have made off with her...besides....she wasn't even acknowledged as being his. I've looked under all the combinations I can think of.....sorry....
ps...I assume you have the family in 1881 that shows the parents came from Ireland.
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:14 am
Wow, you certainly researched a lot about my Carson family! Yes I do have the 1881 census thanks. The parents married in 1873 Rathfriland, Co. Down. That same year they arrived in Irvine, where first child William was born.
I am already beginning to think I may never know what happened to Charles, or baby Elizabeth. I just wondered if Charles didn't die, perhaps he married again, but 17 matches for Charles Kidd marriages after 1898, no Charles E. or Edward among them, so a bit hard to detect. Looked for marriages for baby Elizabeth too, but again, too many.
I know quite a lot about this family....such an interesting lot. I even have a photo of the resting place of Mary's parents and some siblings in Shewalton Cemetery Irvine. I know of the references to being involved in horse racing; they began in 1891 when the family has two jockeys living with them, but on that census the father Thomas is a 'Pig Dealer". Then on Mary and Charles' marriage registration in 1896, Charles is listed as a Horse Trainer, as is his father.
I have several references to Thomas' ocupation as being a harbour worker, chemical worker, general dealer, cattle dealer, butcher, horse trainer and race horse owner. I have tried to find out about races in Irvine, but not been successful. The current day family believe that the Carson family were the owners of a racecourse in Ayr, but I can find no reference to that. In fact I have reason to believe that Thomas may have drifted into racing because his butcher shop was closed down by the Health Department, as it is noted at the NAS. I need to look at it further however.
The informant on Mary's death registration is my great grandmother Margaret McCullogh Carson Granelli, who was the one telling the family about the connection to horse racing. She also told them we were related to the ice cream traders in England, (we may be but remotely) but I think over the years both stories were perhaps unintentionally embellished, but I can't yet prove it one way or the other. However I was pleased to find the first reference to Thomas' involvement with racing. A grain of truth after all.
Anyway, thanks for your time in trying to assist me...if you think of anything else, please let me know.
All the best,
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:15 pm
My ancestors also came from Rathfryland Co Down and settled in Irvine.
Regarding horse racing in Irvine if you visit irvineayrshire.org and go to the link for the ( Marymass festival and the carters society) you will find some history of the annual racing that takes place every year, it also tells you that the first steeple chase recorded in Scotland at Bogside Irvine took place on april 25th 1839.
There is also a forum for Irvine but you have to go to the yahoo discussion groupes and put in a search for irvineites which I think should take you to it, maybe someone on there will be able to help you with your Irvine questions.
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:33 pm
I carried out a search for "Charles Kidd" and "Jockey" on Google.
It may be totally irrelevant to your research but just the fact that Charles Kirk's father was a Charles Kidd I thought it was work posting here.
Annie emigrated to Canada and married Charles Kirk, son of Charles Kidd and Ethel Kirk, in Toronto. From his granddaughter Angela Kirk's website, the following info on Charles is recorded:
Charles was born to a young single woman who worked as a servant. Charles had an older sister Jessie and a younger sister Mildred. He was given to the Barnardos Homes at age 4. He was admitted January 5, 1914. The notes that were taken during his admittance were obtained from the Barnardos homes and give a brief description of Charles family situation at the time. Charles emigrated from England when he was 11 and was indentured to an Ontario farmer. A book and movie entitled "Little Immigrants" has been written describing the life of these children. When Charles was an adult he moved to Toronto where he met and married Annie Christie. Together they raised three children, and the writer (until age 5) who was their granddaughter until Annie's death.
Angela Kirk was born in Toronto and was raised by her grandparents Annie and Charles. Angela can be contacted by e-mail at AngelaMKirkAThotmailDOTcom:
Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:33 pm
Rita, thanks for the links...I appreciate it. At least I know there was some form of horse racing at Irvine. My Carsons did move to Kilmarnock some time before 1914, but it was till most helpful.
And thanks Alcluith for doing that search for me. I don't think it is likely that I am related to that family but I appreciate it all the same.
I now have Mary Carson's set of three marriage certificates and on the latter two she doesn't even mention Charles Kidd...in as much as a "formerly Kidd" capacity. If it wasn't for her death certificate with her sister as informant that mentions the marriage, I would be thinking I had the wrong Mary Carson in the first place! I am thinking that for some reason she kinda 'wrote him off' in her own mind, maybe thinking the marriage didn't last long enough to warrant mention. And that this suggests that he took off....but all speculation, I know.
I suppose I will never know. I would love to have known this woman. What a survivor she must have been!