Pollock or Pollick of Williamsburgh

[talkhugh]

Looking to find records of ancestors from Williamburgh (formerly) near Paisley. Can you help or provide directions/advice?

What I know with certainty:
James Pollock (or Pollick) wife Janet (unfortunately no surname on the death cert which I have for one of their children)
Their children (that I know of)
1- Alexander born 1-1-1800 - came to Canada 1828
2- Janet b 31-10-1804 Busby, Lanarkshire - married James Neil
children:
1-John b 1840
2 William b 1842 died 9-10-1861 Tradeston, Lanark
3 Alex b 1844
4 Andrew b 1846 Tradeston, Lanarkshire
5 James b 1847 Tradeston, Lanarkshire
Note: ALL Neils except William and Andrew came to USA about 1864
3- Agnes b 16-4-1814 Cathcart Renfrew - never married - came to USA 1864
4- Hugh Sterling b 24-5-1817 came to Canada 1828 with brother Alex and later moved to New York

Have OPR record for Janet's marriage to James Neil but no info about parents on it.

Wondering if some local record in Paisley would help make a connection for me. Am not able to find any birth or death records for parents James Pollock and Janet.

Hope someone can provide advice or direction to me.

Thank you in advance. I am located in Canada and have used a researcher many years ago without success. Janet and her family are in the 1841, 1851 and 1861 Scottish census. Would like to trace her son Andrew or Alexander to see if any survivors there - no luck yet. Your thoughts on a good source would also be appreciated.

Hugh

[Jack]

Hi Hugh,
Glad to see you've added more family details.
-
May i ask where you got the placename Williamsburgh from?
As Wilma mentioned over on your other post,
there certainly is an area of that name in Paisley; only a ½ mile east of the town centre.
But Eaglesham is a fair bit away - about 10 miles SE of Paisley.
Though there is a Williamwood between Busby & Cathcart.

If i've got the birthplaces of these children are correct, then it looks like the Pollock family
were gradually moving northwards into the Gorbals area of Glasgow (Janet & Agnes did anyway).
But not anywhere near to Paisley.

Alexander - b 1800 Eaglesham
Janet - b 1804 Busby
Agnes - b 1814 Cathcart
Hugh S - b 1817 ??
---
I take it that the only DC you have is for Hugh Sterling Pollock (b1817)?
And that you can't find death details for Alexander (b1800), Janet (b1804), Agnes (b1814)?
I'd think these, if they can be found, may be useful in positively identifying their parents.
Even if they could at least all confirm their mother actually is a Janet, but preferably with her surname!

Until more evidence comes to light i really can't see what can be done.
As you say - no proof that their parents actally are James Pollick & Janet Boll.
Just a possibilty at present.
A very slim chance is that if the descendants of Andrew Neil know details on the the Pollock family.
But after the passing of the years anything that was known may well now be lost in the mists of time.
I don't like sounding so negative, but i can't really see anything i can get positive about at the present..!

Have you tried to contact the LDS member who submitted the 1831 marriage of James Neil & Janet Polick?
It might be worth asking them if they have anything more on Janet?
Jack
--
ps, by the way, James Neil & Janet Pollock's son John was born abt 1838 according to early censuses.
1841 - age 3; 1851 - age 13.
--

[talkhugh]

Jack,

Thanks so much for your reply. I have realized for many years that my chances of tracing my ancestors in Scotland is indeed VERY slim. I guess I am either a tough old Scot descendant or a silly one but I keep in pursuit of that info. It would be too long a story to tell but I have only recently found Janet Neil family's records revealing her declared birth place and a picture of Hugh Pollock's tombstone on the internet - having faced many dead ends before. Always hope and luck too I guess!

I got Williamsborough, Renfrewshire off the tombstone for Alexander Pollock who came to Canada and yes it was spelled that way. I just re-read the death cert for Hugh Sterling Pollock to see if it referred to Williamborough too but it does not - just says born in Scotland.

By the way, I don't recall if I told you that Janet and James Neil were living at 7 Eglington Place, Burgh of Glasgow, Govan Parish District Tradeston.(Can't tell if this is logical place or a jumble of words??) Got this from census and death certificate or OPR record for their son William Neil's death. There is an OPR marriage record for Janet Polick and James Neil - married 29-03-1831 Gorbals, Lanark which I have assumed is our Janet but there are no details on that record to prove it.

Hugh Sterling Pollock's tomb stone shows he was born in Glasglow, Scotland but that is more likely a "general" indication. Yes, I have Hugh's death cert and Alexander's but Alex's shows no reference to parents at all nor to where he was born.

A researcher reported to me just last week that she found Janet Neil's and her sister Agnes Pollock's death certificates and was to mail copies to me - as soon as I receive them I will pass on any new findings. They died in Jersey City, NJ USA - where Hugh died also.

Thanks for the John Neil's birth date of 1838. It conflicts with those in the US census but I suspect the Scottish one is more accurate. I will make note of the two sources in my record.

Lastly, the individual who reported to me the James Pollick Janet Boll info said he saw it on the IGI records and that is all the info that was there as I checked.

Sorry for the length of this and thanks again.. I don't expect my researcher to be back from vacation until later in April so there may be a delay on receiving the certificates for Janet and Agnes.

Hugh

[JustJean]

Hi folks

Don't even know why I'm doing this but here goes ......was curious to note another HUGH STIRLING POLLOK birth in August 1845 on the IGI in Mearns, Renfrewshire to parents James Pollock and Margaret Cunningham. Thought just maybe James might turn out to be another sibling to fit into your lineup with the huge holes in it. Sorry to say I can't prove that is so as it turns out the this father James seems to have died before 1855. He's there in 1851 and I just found the DC for the above named Hugh Stirling and he died in 1860's and his father was dead at that time. There are several children born to this couple many of them right in Mearns so they certainly fit into the locality profile. I wonder if you've any idea where your Hugh Sterling got his middle name from??? I ask as when I finally uncovered the DC for this one b. in 1845 the informant was a b-i-l with name of McCall. Following up on that there is a MC in Mearns in 1856 of Hugh's sister (that also shows their father James as dec'd) to William McCall and it's quite glaringly obvious that the minister of the Mearns church who performed the ceremony was named HUGH STIRLING!! Coincidence? I wonder..........

So maybe they are related and maybe not.

Best wishes
Jean

[talkhugh]

Thanks for your note JustJean,

I will retain your note for investigation after I determine the parents of my known ancestors in Scotland. This may prove to me that ALL their children came to North America and thus would eliminate the possibility of your suggestion. (Story too long to tell here.)

Hugh

[Jack]

Hi Hugh,
Thanks for the info - i much prefer a long message as it gives a clearer picture on what's already known.
Going by where the POLLOCKs were born, and where they were in the censuses, it seems they possibly never ventured near Paisley?
Could Williamsborough have been an error, and it was meant to be Williamwood?
Maybe over the years it was somehow remembered as William__something?
And someone thought it might be Williamsborough? But that is only guesswork...!
Who erected Alexander's gravestone? When?
I do hope the researcher has very good news for you re Janet's & Agnes' DCs.
I'd have phoned or e-mailed him/her right away to ask what it says for their parents!
You must have great patience....
====
Not sure if you have these censuses for James NEIL & Janet POLLOCK, but here they are in case not.

1841 census 713 Ed 1 p 11 (North Berwick)
East Street.
James NEIL, 35, engineer, 35, b SCT
Janet NEIL, 35, -----------------b SCT
John NEIL, 3, ------------------b SCT
-
1851 census 646 (624) Ed 36 p 3 (Govan, Renfrewshire - Tradeston)
2 New Field Lane.
James NEIL, head, marr, 47, millwright, b Kelso, ROX
Janet NEIL, wife, marr, 46, --------------b Busby, RFW
John NEIL, son, 13, scholar, b Glasgow, RFW [parts of Govan were in Renfrewshire]
William NEIL, son, 9, scholar, b North Berwick, ELN
Alexander NEIL, son, 7, scholar, b North Berwick, ELN
James NEIL, son, 4, schoar, b Glasgow, RFW
Andrew NEIL, son, 5mos, ----b Glasgow, RFW
Agnes POLLOCK, wife's sister, 37, weaver, b Cathcart, RFW

I notice that Andrew NEIL (5mos in 1851) isn't with his parents at 7 Eglinton Place in 1861.
Do you know that he did reach adulthood? If not, maybe he'd died quite young?
You'd have thought a 14yr old wouldn't have stayed behind when all his family were emigrating?
====
I've been trying to find Agnes POLLOCK in 1841 - there is this young lady, but age is a bit out.
The difference could be easily explained - but many things can be if you really want them to...!
The occupation though fits the 37yr old Agnes' of weaver in 1851.
Birthplaces of all the adults as outwith Lanarkshire would also fit for Renfrewshire
but all it does mean is that it wasn't Lanarkshire, and could've been anywhere in Scotland...
So no proof it was Renfrewshire - only one possibility out of many other Counties.

JOHN LIVINGSTON
MARGARET POLLOCK
Marriage: 12 JAN 1840 Gorbals, Lanark, Scotland
-
1841 cens 644-2 Ed 72 p 6 (Gorbals - Hutchesontown)
31 Rutherglen Loan.
John LIVINGSTON, 25, shoe., b SCT
Margaret LIVINGSTON, 25, ----b SCT
John LIVINGSTON, 1, -----------b LKS
James POLLICK, 84, -------------b SCT
Agnes POLLICK, 20, cotton p.l.w., b SCT
--
They seem to disappear as a family group by 1851.
There are a few John LIVINGSTONs of ages to be either father or son in 1851, but look rather doubtful.
But please remember this could well be an entirely different POLLOCK family.
Was there a LIVINGSTON family living nearby to your POLLOCKs in Canada? Clutching at straws....!
====
Jack
ps, i also looked at Pollock deaths in pre 1855 MIs Renfrewshire, and burials in Gorbals, Govan.
But nothing that "sticks out" to be your own family.
--

[talkhugh]

Jack,

I am puzzled more now with conflicting information. I am also embarrassed that I don't know the geography of Scotland nor names of counties better. This causes me to readily question my location data which would not be the case if I knew them better.

My subscription lapsed with Ancestry.com where I took the 1841 and 1851 census info from so I cannot recheck. I have the Scottish 1861 census print of their page But here are some differences with the data you sent:
1- Janet born in Busby , RFW or Lanarkshire?
2- Andrew was born in 1846 (fits with other children birth dates) Is it possible you have another family?
3- I did not see Andrew in 1861 census either but thought he may have been overlooked. (there is an Andrew who died 12 Apr 1917 - was living at 28 Hinshaw St., Glasgow at the time, a widower, death record said Cerebral thrombosis 7 days certified by Dr Robert G. Inglis and his son Andrew was present and indicated he was a railroad porter.- maybe no connection)
4- Hugh Sterling Pollock's Will said he was survived by two nephews in Scotland but did not list their names. I was thinking that would have been Andrew and Alexander Neil as I know James and John came to the USA and William was killed on the job in Tradeston. This statement in his Will makes me suspicious that there be no other siblings of Hugh, Alexander, Janet and Agnes Pollock OR the other ones died in infancy if there were any. (I have tentatively recorded a Wm b Dec 1799, James b Aug 1805 - captured a long time ago but don't remember where I got it - reluctant to drop yet) BUT NOW THIS IS ALL IN QUESTION AGAIN!!!! Grrr!
5-The Livingston Pollock data is INTERESTING as I can draw two connections from it 1- The James Pollick 84 - his age could tie generally with the James Pollick who married to Janet Boll in Apr 1795 and 2- Margaret Livingston amd Agnes Pollock could be cousins. The mother having died would leave only Agnes and the father who may have lived with the neice / cousin BUT ALL THIS IS SPECULATION.
6- Agnes was listed in 1861 census as a domestic servant AND her birth date is a solid fact - not off by 6 years in any case.

In that scenario (5- above) old James Pollick died in the 1840s. I had been thinking a lot earlier as Hugh Sterling P was only 11 years old when he and Alex came to Canada. But that assumption could be wrong. It is too bad his death record did not show up. I will look more from here. I suspect the Livingston group is a coincidence - I will keep these facts

Oh boy! Your posting has sure shaken my assumptions!

Appreciate your info.

Hugh

[Jack]

Hi Hugh,
To try and answer!
By the way all the censuses i've mentioned are viewable on the paysite ScotlandsPeople.
--
1 - Janet was as born Busby, RFW
It was partly in Lanarkshire & also partly in Renfrewshire.
So depends on which side of the White Cart river you were born.
Today it all comes under East Renfrewshire.

2 - Could you have written 5 years instead of 5 months for Andrew?
The name order in the census places Andrew below 4yr old James.
(i should've mentioned; parents James & Janet are on page 2, all the others are on page 3)

3 - Always the possibility that Andrew was overlooked in 1861....
Or even that he was elsewhere - can't see him in Glasgow though.
What were the parents' names for the Andrew Neil who died in 1917? His age?
And his wife's name?

4 - Maybe there are other brothers (or sisters) of Hugh S, who remained in Scotland?
What date was the will?

5 - Margaret Livingston & Agnes Pollock could also be sisters...!
And is also speculation....

6 - The Agnes in 1841 was a cotton power loom weaver (p.l.w.).
Your Agnes was as a weaver in 1851.
Agnes as a domestic servant in 1861 seems reasonable - plenty work in a big town.
If Agnes' real age in 1841 was 26, but said she was 24, then this could be written as 20....
(ages in 1841 were normally rounded down - see link at top of TS for Census)
As i said, you can make things fit if you really want them to suit you!
====
The National Library of Scotland (NLS) site may help with Eaglesham etc.
It also has many excellent maps for all of Scotland at different periods in time.
http://www.nls.uk/maps/early/counties.html
-
Select - Renfrewshire,
Select - 1826 John THOMSON's map (a new page will open),
Click anywhere on the map to enlarge it,
Select the square Ge (2nd up on right hand side),
Zoom in to near the bottom centre and you'll see Eaglesham,
(just left click your mouse to zoom in till you can read the name fairly easy)
Then click on the "pan up" symbol just under the map.
You'll come across Bushby (Busby) on the Lanarkshire side,
then still panning up a Williamwood, then Cathcart,
keep going up directly north till you meet the River Clyde - you'll see Tradeston.
--
There are other maps on the NLS site to view the above area.
====
Jack

[talkhugh]

Jack,

The maps are interesting - will need time to reflect over them. Did notice that Tradeston on the map is spelled Tradestown. I assume that is the only place and not two places.

1- Janet birth place was taken from census - she must have stated Lanarkshire.
2- Did I say 5? may have don't recall other than taking date from census data. I don't see Andrew born in 1850-1851 (using 5 mos).
3- The OPR death for Andrew showed only his son Andrew name as being present. I wonder if there are other records that I should be looking at?
4- If I end up proving Andrew did not survive 1860, then that would be the right conclusion - a Pollock nephew existed in Scotland. I need to do more homework.
5- Yes a possibility but I highly doubt it - cousin more likely or friendly neighbour.
6- Yes, census and statistics are similar that way - read what you want!

I am going to do homework here and wait for my New Jersey researcher to provide the DC for Janet and Agnes - and just hope one of them will be informative.

Will be back to you only when I get this news. Thanks again.

Regards,

Hugh

[talkhugh]

Jack,

I looked at the 1861 census again for the Janet and James Neil family and as you pointed out, Andrew was not included. BUT neither is Alex or John their two other sons?? This may mean they were living elsewhere I presume??

I did find Agnes Pollock in the same census in the parish of Barony, Burgh of Glasgow at 7 Woodside Cr. She was listed as a servant for a Solicitor and Advocates (several)??? WHAT IS INTERESTING is that her birth place is shown as Lanark, Old Monklands. How does that relate to Cathcart??

Also, I re-read some of your posts and note that you have Agnes' brother Alexander's birth place as Eaglesham?(your post 21-3-07) I missed that on the first reading. I did not know that. Where did you get that info? Eaglesham is where James Pollick and Janet Boll were married in 1795 - yet another tie in with these parents. (As aside note, Polick spelling was found on of Alexander's (b 1800) family Bible and on a butter stamp found on his farm- but not two "l"s)

I looked for the date of Hugh Sterling Pollock's Will. Not having a copy, I have only marked 1890 which was its registration date. I had just wrote down the pertinent things in the Will in 1979 when I was in Jersey City - a mistake I realize. So as to your earlier question, he had two surviving nephews about that time - at least beyond 1861. Combined with the first paragraph above, I would place my bets that Andrew did NOT die before 1861 or even 1890. However, I am questioning the death in 1917 for Andrew that I have - really not confident in it yet. It showed he died at 28 Hindshaw Street, Glasgow, 70 yrs of age, his father and mother's first names were unknown - father's job was a railway Porter which is not a match if correctly reported.

I have still not heard from my New Jersey researcher so assume she had no time before leaving on vacation to send the DCs for Janet and Agnes.

I think we will get a break through with the parents identity with just a clue or two more- that would be nice given many years of effort. I am grateful for your help.

Hugh