Agnes Innes - OPR birth/baptism double entry .....

Lahb · Post by **Lahb** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:02 am

Regarding the original thread on this - IanS had asked me to post back once I got the certificate for Agnes which came yesterday!! It unfortunately looks as if I didn't order both birth/baptism records (must have pressed the wrong order button and got her husbands instead!) But the information on this one is:

Agnes, daughter to William Innes shoemaker, and Cordellia McLean born 4th and baptized 24th June 1836.

Now the records on this page are all over the place in terms of date. Most seem to be from the 1836 era, but the one directly above hers is dated 1835 and the one above that is 1836 for the birth and 1839 for the baptism! I don't think that is usual to have such variants in dates on one page, at least not with the others I've seen.

The original quandary was as to why there would be two birth records and two baptism records:

20 MAR 1836 Greenock Par, , Renfrew, Scotland
04 APR 1836 Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland

Christening: 10 APR 1836 West Or Old Parish, Greenock, Renfrew,
Christening: 24 JUN 1836 West Or Old Parish, Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland

So this set seems to go with the latter two birth/christening dates, even though the date April is never mentioned on the OPR I've received. I'll order the other record this weekend so we'll have to wait until the new year to see if it can be solved!

Post by **AndrewP** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:14 am

Lahb wrote:Now the records on this page are all over the place in terms of date. Most seem to be from the 1836 era, but the one directly above hers is dated 1835 and the one above that is 1836 for the birth and 1839 for the baptism! I don't think that is usual to have such variants in dates on one page, at least not with the others I've seen.

Were family groups together on the page? I have seen examples where complete families list their births and/or christenings (of the 1820s to 1840s) together. These seem to have been entered in the OPRs in the early 1850s, when it seems that families not previously registered were asked to do so before statutory registration came in.

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

Cathy · Post by **Cathy** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:22 am

Hi Lahb,
can only suggest that like OPR Marriages, to keep both sets of in-laws
happy (in adjacent parishes)?

DavidWW · Post by **DavidWW** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:42 am

Or, as was quite often the case with a first pregnancy, the wife went back to her mammy, birth took place there, as did the baptism, but there was also a baptism in the place of residence, or, the fact of the baptism elsewhere was recorded.

David

Lahb · Post by **Lahb** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:07 pm

Hi AndrewP, no there doesn't seem to be family grouping - none of the surnames or mothers maiden names match, but good idea!

Hi Cathy and David - that may be the case, though IanS had an interesting idea that maybe they had changed religion and were required to rebaptise the children. Both Agnes and her older sister Janet are listed with two christening dates (Janets are 05/11/1834 and 05/11/1836) - but Agnes is the only one listed with two birth dates as well. Janets may just be a transcription error as the year is the only thing off, but with Agnes the month and year are different - hence the curiosity

Thank you for your suggestions - they whole "mystery" may turn out to be just a simple as pleasing parents. Lisa

IanS · Post by **IanS** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:26 am

Hi Lisa, Over on the other Forum, when I just had the dates and no names, I thought it might have been different churches, or a numerical transcription error, but you then supplied the Frame No's , (and Andrew supplied the names) which are just 6 frames apart on the same film. So............I wouldn't have thought it would have been different churches.

Could you , if you are near to an L.D.S. centre order the film? Or maybe some kind soul who is going to Edinburgh in the near future, have a wee keek for you?

Re: the other page sent to you with irrelevant info. Double check it is your mistake, it may not be. If not your mistake, then send a contact form. You may be due a refund

P.S. Just a thought, are the 2 page entries you received in the same or different handwriting? Or possibly mixed?

Andy · Post by **Andy** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:58 am

There is only one entry for Agnes and Janet the entries given on IGI seem to have been created out of the Birth Date and Baptism Date.

However, the overall dating is a MESS. Janet's entry is under Births and Baptisms July 1834 when she was clearly born in October.

I couldn't see an 1836 entry for Janet.

Agnes is down for Births and Baptisms February 1836 (different film) but seems to have been born in March.

What I reckon MAY have happened was that the Minister was trying to be efficient and averaged out the monthly births and baptisms over the previous year and headed, what he thought, was enough pages in advance. The book would have cost a pretty penny and, headed in Ink (without tipex) he was stuck with the pre-written headings.

Clearly didn't learn by his mistakes because the same thing happened in 1836.

Perhaps he got a Job Lot of books from the OTHER William Innis (a book seller) and predated all of them years in advance not taking into account the rapidly rising population.

I checked the other parish registers but there are only the single entries for JAnet and Agnes in West or Old Parish.

I also checked the hatches matches and dispaches for Innis and Lamonts in the various newspapers.

The only entry for any of your direct family is:

Archibald Lamont, engineer, husband of Cordelia Innis, died 16 Hope Street, Greenock on 12th Oct 1911

William Innis is recorded in Trade directories from 1847 - 1854 thereafter nothing.

In 1847 - 1848 he was at Bearhope Street

1849- 1850 Ann Street

1851 - 1852, 1852 -1853, 1953 - 1854 Tobago Street

Archibald Lamont is in every Trade Directory I checked from 1865 - 1910

In 1861 there is a 79 year old Cordelia Innis staying with an 18 year old Neil Innis.

I'm fairly sure this is YOUR Cordelia, Widowed Washerwoman living in the Vennel.

Lahb · Post by **Lahb** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:39 am

My goodness Andy - you've been busy! Thanks so much for going to that effort.

Regarding Janet - I guess we can chalk that one up to transcription error

At least the Agnes one is consistent! I agree, the little I have (being her birth/baptism OPR page) is a mess, dates all over the place - but you were obviously able to view more of this ministers recordings - interesting "method" he had (or might have had - your reckoning makes sense to me though).

My William dies in 1855, hence why you were unable to find him after. The GRO is sending me a paper copy of his death registry as the online one was so impossible to read. Looks like he was in High Church District, Glasgow at the time - something about dying on McNeil Street (and then some other name completely unreadable) - may have been visiting family as it looks as if the informant is a sister (name is not really readable) but I'm pretty sure the relation is sister. Thank you very much for the trade addresses - I'm going to look them up - love seeing, when I can, the area's everyone lived/worked in.

Cordelia (washerwoman) was living with her son Neil in 1861 but was age 49 (the 4 very much does look like a 7 on the copy). By 1871 (age 60) she was living with an Ann McKenzie (head of house) and gives her relation as "sister" - still tracking that one down. Skip a head to 1879 and she dies in the Greenock Poorhouse of chronic bronchitis.

Andy, thank you again for your efforts in this - most of my relatives have been quite straight forward for the most part - but you've all really helped me along with this puzzle and I really appreciate it!

Best, Lisa

Andy · Post by **Andy** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:51 am

Can't see an Ann McLean born to Donald and Janet McCallum, just the following:

CATHARINE MACLEAN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 13 JAN 1814
CATHARINE MACLEAN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 15 JAN 1814 Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
PETER MACLEAN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 07 MAR 1807
PETER MACLEAN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 10 MAR 1807 Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
DUNCAN MACLEAN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 30 MAY 1811
DUNCAN MACLEAN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 01 JUN 1811 Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland
CORDELIA MACLEAN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 12 MAR 1809
CORDELIA MACLEAN - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 16 MAR 1809 Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland

Looks like the correct family.

Lahb · Post by **Lahb** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:33 am

Hi Andy, not the same family I'm afraid. Cordelia was born a few years later (aprox 1811/12) to a John McLean (tailor) - mother unknown (to me yet!). Ann, if indeed her sister was younger. Born around 1823. I've got a few more McKenzie's to check out on SP yet. Best, Lisa

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Agnes Innes - OPR birth/baptism double entry .....

Agnes Innes - OPR birth/baptism double entry .....

Re: Agnes Innes - OPR birth/baptism double entry