between 1855/1908 what documents required place of birth....
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arlene
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between 1855/1908 what documents required place of birth....
I have a great great grandfather, Peter (Patrick) Leonard who was born c.1825 somewhere in County Fermanagh, Ireland, he marries Helen Scott in Monifieth in 1849. He lives in the general Monikie/Monifieth area and dies in 1908 in Monifieth. He was a labourer, spirit dealer, and various other types of farm labouring work. During that time period would he have been required to fill out any kind of "official" document that required his actual place of birth, such as the village name? He had a nephew, Peter Leonard, born in 1858 also in County Fermanagh, who died in the 1940's in Angus, also a general farm labourer, would he be required to list his actual village of birth at some point? So far this family has only given up the County name but I really would like to know where in the County they came from. Between 1851 & 1901 the most they have listed is Fermanagh, Ireland.
Arlene - searching Balfour, Bush, Leonard, Malcolm, McPherson, McDonald, Morrison in Angus
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JustJean
- Posts: 2520
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:52 am
- Location: Maine USA
Hello Arlene and Welcome!
Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a sure fire resource thats holds all the missing Irish data we would love to get our hands on!!?
To answer you to the best of my ability I would say there is none. There is however several options you should eliminate if you haven't already. First is to look at the BC of the Leonard children....especially #1 being an 1855 birth. These sometime hold more details because of the number of questions posed. For example I lucked out in my own family by finding the very last child born on 1 Jan 1855....(yup 1st day of registration
)...and on her BC....it stated the parents were from Killinchy in County Down.
1. JAMES LEONARD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 18 MAY 1855 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
2. ALEXANDER LEANORD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 17 JUL 1857 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
3. CHARLES LENERD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 06 APR 1860 Monikie, Angus, Scotland
4. MARY LENORD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 09 MAY 1862 Inverarity And Methy, Angus, Scotland
5. HELEN LENERD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 27 MAR 1865 Monifieth, Angus, Scotland
6. NEIL LENERD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 20 DEC 1867 Monikie, Angus, Scotland
7. PATRICK LENERD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 15 JAN 1869 Monikie, Angus, Scotland
If this approach fails miserably.....well you can always cross your fingers that at some point they applied for Poor Relief and the records are extant. There can be truly amazing data culled from this type of source!!
...and now.....My final advice if the first two efforts are dead ends?....well....you can usually narrow up the area in Ireland through a surname search. Especially the one offered at the Irish Times site.... http://scripts.ireland.com/ancestor/sur ... o.&UserID=. Once you have a general idea and armed with any data from the Griffiths Valuation records you might look for other researchers working on the same surname or in the same areas. I've had some reasonable success with this route as well. It can be tedius and time consuming but the more effort you put in the better results you usually have! (Didn't I make that sound easy
)
I do wish you well.....and I know exactly how frustrating the spot you're in can be......
Jean
PS...and as an afterthought.....don't discount the research of any siblings Peter (Patrick) may have had. Especially if they came over to Scotland. One of them (if there were any!) may have been more informative!!
Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a sure fire resource thats holds all the missing Irish data we would love to get our hands on!!?
To answer you to the best of my ability I would say there is none. There is however several options you should eliminate if you haven't already. First is to look at the BC of the Leonard children....especially #1 being an 1855 birth. These sometime hold more details because of the number of questions posed. For example I lucked out in my own family by finding the very last child born on 1 Jan 1855....(yup 1st day of registration
)...and on her BC....it stated the parents were from Killinchy in County Down. 1. JAMES LEONARD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 18 MAY 1855 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
2. ALEXANDER LEANORD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 17 JUL 1857 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
3. CHARLES LENERD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 06 APR 1860 Monikie, Angus, Scotland
4. MARY LENORD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 09 MAY 1862 Inverarity And Methy, Angus, Scotland
5. HELEN LENERD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 27 MAR 1865 Monifieth, Angus, Scotland
6. NEIL LENERD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 20 DEC 1867 Monikie, Angus, Scotland
7. PATRICK LENERD - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 15 JAN 1869 Monikie, Angus, Scotland
If this approach fails miserably.....well you can always cross your fingers that at some point they applied for Poor Relief and the records are extant. There can be truly amazing data culled from this type of source!!
...and now.....My final advice if the first two efforts are dead ends?....well....you can usually narrow up the area in Ireland through a surname search. Especially the one offered at the Irish Times site.... http://scripts.ireland.com/ancestor/sur ... o.&UserID=. Once you have a general idea and armed with any data from the Griffiths Valuation records you might look for other researchers working on the same surname or in the same areas. I've had some reasonable success with this route as well. It can be tedius and time consuming but the more effort you put in the better results you usually have! (Didn't I make that sound easy
)I do wish you well.....and I know exactly how frustrating the spot you're in can be......
Jean
PS...and as an afterthought.....don't discount the research of any siblings Peter (Patrick) may have had. Especially if they came over to Scotland. One of them (if there were any!) may have been more informative!!
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WilmaM
- Posts: 1890
- Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:46 am
- Location: Falkirk area
Actually, to have Fermanagh and not just "Ireland" is a BIG bonus 
Have a look at the web site : http://www.fermanagh.org.uk/genealogy/
It's a wee while since I've used it [ given up on my Fermanagh lot for now](./images/smilies/brick-wall.gif "Brick wall")
] but it looks as if there's a lot more now.
Some bits of the 1821 census are there, if you know your man's parent's names [ from his death cert ] you may find them, or the nephew's father if he was on older brother.
There's some births, marriages and deaths taken from various sources.
Several Leonards show up in these sections - so you might get something of use.
I hope you find out something.
Have a look at the web site : http://www.fermanagh.org.uk/genealogy/
It's a wee while since I've used it [ given up on my Fermanagh lot for now
] but it looks as if there's a lot more now.Some bits of the 1821 census are there, if you know your man's parent's names [ from his death cert ] you may find them, or the nephew's father if he was on older brother.
There's some births, marriages and deaths taken from various sources.
Several Leonards show up in these sections - so you might get something of use.
I hope you find out something.
Wilma
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DavidWW
- Posts: 5057
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:47 pm
Arlene
On top of BMD register entries in the year 1855, the only document that I'm aware of that could have required this would a Poor Relief application, - i.e. the report filled out by the poor relief inspector. In more cases than not which I've seen for applicants born in Ireland, these give the townland.
There's lots of other documents such as deeds, burgess tickets, apprenticeship contracts, etc., which mgiht refer to the original country of birth, but I wouldn't expect them to show the exact place..
David
On top of BMD register entries in the year 1855, the only document that I'm aware of that could have required this would a Poor Relief application, - i.e. the report filled out by the poor relief inspector. In more cases than not which I've seen for applicants born in Ireland, these give the townland.
There's lots of other documents such as deeds, burgess tickets, apprenticeship contracts, etc., which mgiht refer to the original country of birth, but I wouldn't expect them to show the exact place..
David
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ninatoo
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DavidWW
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- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:47 pm
Hang on.... I'm talking about info on place of birth, and that was only on a marriage register entry in 1855!ninatoo wrote:I have a number of birth certificates, one is certainly from 1862 that states the parents' place and date of marriage. So I think it was later than just the one year of 1855, that they had to include this information.
Nina
David
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ninatoo
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DavidWW
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ninatoo
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Well David,
I must have been very lucky then because I have found at least three family's Irish villages or towns of origin from Glasgow birth registrations. I am not saying it always happens, but that it CAN...and DOES, and I suggest the lady gets all the birth registration certificates she can in the hope that she might get to know more.
I know you have seen a million more certificates that I have and am not disputing your point. Just saying, is all....
Nina
I must have been very lucky then because I have found at least three family's Irish villages or towns of origin from Glasgow birth registrations. I am not saying it always happens, but that it CAN...and DOES, and I suggest the lady gets all the birth registration certificates she can in the hope that she might get to know more.
I know you have seen a million more certificates that I have and am not disputing your point. Just saying, is all....
Nina