CHARLOTTE GORDON .....

[melvinboy]

Im trying to find my g.g.grandmother's birth and who her parents were.Her name was Charlotte Gordon and on the 1841 census she was aged 25.She married John Pirie on 3/6/1837 in Cruden Aberdeenshire.She had 4 children Isabel b. 1837,Charles Gordon b. 1839,Ann Duncan b.1841 and Jane b.1844.all her children were born in Cruden apart from Ann who was born in Logie Buchan.Charlotte must have died between giving birth in 1844 and 1849 as John remarried that year.She didnt die in childbirth as Jane was christened in the December of 1844 and Charlotte is present.I have been searching for 4 years to find her birth and her parents,can anyone help?

[LesleyB]

Hi Melvinboy
I can see only one hopeful on IGI who I'm sure you will already be familiar with:

CHARLOTTE GORDON
Female
Birth:
Christening: 20 JAN 1817 Cabrach, Aberdeen, Scotland
Parents:
Father: ADAM GORDON
Mother: CHARLOTTE HAY

Listed as aged 25 in 1841 doesn't seem too far fetched for ths one. Was your one listed in the 1841 as born in county?

Maybe, if you are lucky a MI may be recorded which would give a date of death? Maybe try http://www.abdnet.co.uk/mi-index/
Best wishes
Lesley

[JustJean]

Hello Melvinboy

I've got a awful lot of clues but don't have things tied up in a neat package for you. I wonder how much your own digging might have thrown up these same notable records......

First I looked at the names Charlotte gave her children. Taking a huge risk I searched for a Charles Gordon in the 1841 census and there was one in Cruden no less!! and of an age to be her possible father...or at least an older brother. You might want to get these records and follow along.....Next look in 1851 in Cruden and he's still there with expanded family and a man of some importance. Now our luck disappears as does the entire household in 1861. It might be interesting to trawl through the actual 1861 census microfilm to see just who was living in the area named "Auchleuchreis" or some variation of it.

You can see a very interesting surname living there in 1881....



Dwelling: South Mains Auchleuchreis
Census Place: Cruden, Aberdeen, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203454 GRO Ref Volume 185 EnumDist 4 Page 13
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Elspet PIRIE W 70 F Ellon, Aberdeen, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Farmer Employing 2 Men 1 Boy & 2 Girls
William PIRIE U 32 M Cruden, Aberdeen, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Farm Serv
Jane PIRIE U 17 F Cruden, Aberdeen, Scotland
Rel: Serv
Occ: General Serv Dom
Elspet PIRIE U 15 F Cruden, Aberdeen, Scotland
Rel: Serv
Occ: General Serv Dom
James SIM U 22 M Strichen, Aberdeen, Scotland
Rel: Serv
Occ: Farm Serv
Robert EDMOND U 18 M Ellon, Aberdeen, Scotland
Rel: Serv
Occ: Farm Serv
James PIRIE 12 M Cruden, Aberdeen, Scotland
Rel: Grandson
Occ: Scholar
Stewart ADAMS M 53 M Edinburgh, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Visitor
Occ: Labourer
Helen ADAMS M 52 F Montrose, Forfar, Scotland
Rel: Visitors Wife
Occ: Fish Dealer


Now you can see this is all pure speculation so far. You might be able to track down a Marriage or Death of the dau Jane Gordon just to see who her parents were. If you were really really lucky and it came up as Charles Gordon and Ann Duncan for example...we could start the celebrating right now! I'm not convinced the parents of Charlotte can ever be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt...but unless you start building some possible scenarios and then slowly eliminating the ones that don't hold water it certainly will never happen.

Ok...so how much of this have you already mis-proven

Best wishes
Jean

[JustJean]

Oh dear....I've now gotten a huge pile of clues and the story is getting richer by the minute

I failed to point out that in 1851 you'll find a very interesting servant in his household....first name of Ann........matter of fact she's there in 1841 too.......

Now let's just assume that Charles GORDON is the father of your Charlotte. And what we really need to find out is who her mum was. But we only have a possible sister named Jane and a child of Charlottes named Ann Duncan. Before I said our luck ran out with Charles GORDON and household absent from the 1861 in Cruden. This is very true. But being the inquisitive type ....couldn't resist going further. You'll find an interesting household in Peterhead headed up by a Charles GORDON and right there in second place is an unmarried servant Ann DUNCAN and then the usual complement of unmarried dau Jane and Mary age 17 and now a Margaret age 8. Ann DUNCAN household position certainly alludes to the fact that she may be the mother of the younger offspring in the household .

Now let's see if the old boy is around in 1871.....amazing! Look in Longside and there is a Charles and household there. Ann is now named as wife. Still got the unmarried Jane and a widowed dau Mary. Run right out and look for the marriage of the dau Mary and you'll quickly find her daddy was Charles GORDON and her mum was Ann DUNCAN. Ok but we already suspected that!

Surely he can't live too much longer....so narrow up a death search and you'll find him soon enough. Oddly enough the age is way off....but the place is right on....Longside....and the informant is the previosuly named widowed dau Mary. The biggie here is that he was SINGLE! Unfortunately no wifeys named....drat.

Here is the unamarried Jane in 1881

Dwelling: Mintlaw
Census Place: Longside, Aberdeen, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203460 GRO Ref Volume 218 EnumDist 4 Page 6
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Jane GORDON U 61 F Logie Buchan, Aberdeen, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Retired Dom Serv

and here is Charles partner in 1881....


Dwelling: Mintlaw
Census Place: Longside, Aberdeen, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203460 GRO Ref Volume 218 EnumDist 4 Page 19
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Ann DUNCAN U 63 F Ellon, Aberdeen, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Bread Mercht
Charles G. WALKER U 16 M Longside, Aberdeen, Scotland
Rel: Grandson
Occ: Gen Lab

One last hope....look for the death of the unmarried Jane GORDON in Longside.....is there a mother?...nope...just a father...Charles GORDON...and the notation...Illegitimate......

Sigh.....I'm out of suggestions at this point. The fact that there is a Charles Gordon and an Ann Duncan clearly as a couple and those are both names Charlotte gives to her children. The fact that there are PIRIE's living in the same area 1881 where Charles lived formerly....all circumstantial.....but it's the best I have to offer....

Best wishes
Jean

PS...Now tell me how much of this you already knew !

[DavidWW]

Some geographical comments.

Peterhead and Cruden are adjoining coastal parishes in NE Aberdeenshire, and both share an inland border with Longside parish, so that it doesn't take too much imagination to see that these records all fit together.

Cabrach parish, however, is the thick end of 50 miles away, slightly South of West, just over the county border into the county of Banff (bits at least of the parish were at one point in Aberdeenshire).

I'm not ruling out the Cabrach record purely on that basis, as, in the largely rural and agricultural NE, it's not at all uncommon to find that someone moved a considerable distance over their lifetime, on the basis of the annual "fees", i.e. employment contracts, but most often the pattern that resulted is a zig-zag in and around one particular area, rather than a move of 50 miles in one consistent direction!

Which is all a way of suggesting that when you are involved in a search such as this you need to develop a knowledge of the local geography if you aren't already expert, particularly the parish maps such as are sold by many Scottish FHSs.

On top of that it can also help to develop a knowledge of the lie of the land, i.e. a move of 50 miles in one direction might well just be that much more likely than a move of 10 miles in another direction, if the 50 mile move was up or down a strath (Scots for valley), whereas the 10 mile move required the crossing of a major mountain range

David

[AndrewP]

For Aberdeenshire parish maps:

http://www.urie.demon.co.uk/genuki/ABD/parishmap1.html
http://www.urie.demon.co.uk/genuki/ABD/parishmap2.html

All the best,

AndrewP

[melvinboy]

First of all can i apologise to all you helpful people that i have not got back to you until now.I hadnt ticked the bo to be notified when a reply was posted.I did think that Charles Gordon who was living in Cruden could be Charlotte's father especially when there was a servant there who was called Ann Duncan.I also thought that Jane could be her sister as she called one of her daughters Jane,her son was obviously called after her father Charles Gordon Pirie.her eldest daughter Isabel i thought would be called after her mother.I tried to find Charles Gordon's death to see if it had his first wife's name on it but i couldnt find it.I was in touch with someone who was related to Ann Duncan but she couldnt tell me if Charles Gordon had been married previously.If i could find where Charlotte was buried (which i think will be in Cruden) it may help.I have relatives who still live up North and i visit every year,maybe the next time im up there ill visit Cruden and see if i can find a stone with her death on it.Once again thank you for all youre help.

[melvinboy]

I have been on the IGI site and found a Chasrles Gordon married to an Isabel Thomson.Thay had quite a few children but no mention of one called Charlotte.They did have one called Jane who was born 8/11/1817.The Isabel could have been Charlotte's mother and that is who she called her eldest daughter after.This couple had an Ann and a Charles in there family as well.Is it possible that Charlotte could have been missed whan the person put this info in?

[melvinboy]

I went on the SP site and found Charles Gordon's death certificate,it had his occupation as a Physician but this was never mentioned on the 1841/51/61 census.In the 1851 census he has a son named Joseph who is 14 but he is not in the 41/61 census.On the census it says that Joseph was born in Moniquitter.Ive tried looking for Joseph's birth to see who the mother was but couldnt find it.I think this is Charlotte's father as all the names fit but where it says single on the death certificate there is something written underneath but it is very faint.

[JustJean]

Hi melvinboy

Wow...had to really dig into my notes to find this one again! Glad you found you had replies to your query!! You're correct that Charles Gordon has a son listed on the 1851...but his name is John and not Joseph. I too could not locate him in 1841 or 1861. I wondered if he was another illegitimate or perhaps not really a son but was enumerated incorrectly I also wondered if he might have died before 1855. Still a mystery I'm afraid. As for the occupation of physician...there is one other occurence of it....on the 1862 MC of Mary to Mr. WALKER she states her father's occupation as "surgeon". There is no doubt that we have the same Charles through all the census records due to the family members that come and go. I'm still not 100% certain just what a Commissioner of Supply might be responsible for though! One other clue that I did not complete tracking down is the presence of a "neice" named Ann Duncan on the 1871 census. There is one born in New Pitsligo that might be her birth but the index does not link to the correct image.....I've sent a contact form on that. Unfortunately your theory that Charles GORDON and Isabel THOMSON might be the same Charles GORDON that we're tracking down does not appear to be likely. A search on Joseph GORDON that according to the IGI submittal was one of their sons turns up his death in Aberdeen in 1893. THis states his parents as both deceased and father as a Mill manager. This Joseph had been married twice so a search on his most recent marriage turns that up in 1872....at which time he once again states that both his parents are deceased and his father was a wright. Since the other Charles was quite alive in 1872 and never seen in those occupations I'm quite certain they are not the same person. A closer look at the DC image does show there to be some faint writing under "single" but it's not legible from the online image. It can't hurt to request a photocopy via contact form to see if that can be deciphered!

Best wishes
Jean