Could Agnes, Margt and Elizabeth be the same person? .....

[Alice Bradford]

Hi,
Scottish Church Records has 5 children born to John Martin and Agnes Allan. I looked at the OPR and they were born at Coathill, in 1740, 1743, 1745, 1754, and 1757, but two children were born in 1748 and 1751 the first to John Martin and Marg. Allan of Coathill and the 1751 one was born to John Martin and Elizabeth Allan of Coledhill. I didn't find any other births for John Martin and Elizabeth or Marg. Allan of Coathill, so I'm wondering if Agnes is a nickname for Elizabeth or Marg. What do you suppose is going on here?

Thanks for your help.
Alice

[paddyscar]

Hi Alice:

I've never heard of them being connected, but I did check http://www.behindthename.com/php/extra. ... =elizabeth which gives an Irish version of Elizabeth as Eilis/Eilish [pronounced ei-leesh]

Depending on the accents, the record keeper may have 'heard' Agnes. Going that far back, it's probable that the person reporting would not have been able to read, so would not have been able to spot an error.

That could account for the Agnes/Elizabeth.

One way that Margaret may have been slipped into the mix, is that she may have been 'named' Margaret, but referred to as Elizabeth. This is not uncommon where there are many children who marry and then if each of them follows the naming traditions, pretty soon you have more Margarets and Elizabeths than you can count. Middle names often are added and used as a first name, and sometimes it seems alternate names are drawn from a hat.

I don't know much about the OPRs, but don't imagine that they would provide as much information as the birth registers of later dates, making it more difficult to sort out the discrepancies.

If John had 3 ladies on the go at one time, I think the Parish would not have looked on it kindly and some mention would have been made about his conduct. Something subtle like 'Illegitimate child of John and Margaret, born while John was married to Elizabeth, by whom he had 5 other children'

But there will be other members who may be able to pinpoint with more certainty, what was going on there.

Frances

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[LesleyB]

Hi Alice
Have you seen the original OPR - I'm guessing you might because you mention Coledhill/Coathill?

The IGI has the following (I think these are yours?) A mixture of extracts and submissions, mostly submissions - some of the submissions look a bit "out" with Agnes apparently being christened before she was born, and a difference of a year with Jean!!

• Scotland, British Isles
  Father: John Martin, Mother: Agnes Allan
  Exact Spelling: Off
  
  JEAN MARTIN - extract
  Gender: Female Christening: 28 DEC 1740 New Monkland, Lanark
  JEAN MARTIN - submission
  Gender: Female Christening: 28 DEC 1739 New Monkland, Lanark
  
  MARY MARTIN - submission
  Gender: Female Christening: 10 APR 1743 New Monkland, Lanark
  
  AGNES MARTIN - submission
  Gender: Female Christening: 07 JUL 1745 New Monkland, Lanark
  AGNES MARTIN - extract
  Gender: Female Birth: 21 JUL 1745 New Monkland, Lanark
  
  BETHIA MARTIN - submission
  Gender: Female Christening: 24 MAR 1751 New Monkland, Lanark
  
  JOHN MARTIN - submission
  Gender: Male Christening: 04 APR 1754 New Monkland, Lanark
  
  GEORGE MARTIN - submission
  Gender: Male Christening: 01 JAN 1757 New Monkland, Lanark

and these two:

• Scotland, British Isles
  Father: John Martin, Mother: Margaret Allan
  
  1. JANET MARTIN - submission
  Gender: Female Christening: 24 OCT 1748 New Monkland, Lanark
  
  
  Father: John Martin, Mother: Elizabeth Allan
  
  1. BETHIA MARTIN - extract
  Gender: Female Birth: 24 MAR 1751 New Monkland, Lanark

I'm guessing too that perhaps New Monkland may have been a busy parish (mining area?) and as such, the parishoners may not all have been known personally by name by the church. I might be easy for someone in a hurry to write in the wrong name. I'm pretty sure I've seen examples of this before. I think you may just have to use common sense - if the place they are staying at remains constant - Coalhill and the spacing of the children makes sense, and you've checked the OPR to make your own mind up about the transcriptions... it would appear that the submitter to the IGI has come to the conclusion that they are all from the same family, but you need to weigh up the facts and make your own mind up at the end of the day.

Best wishes
Lesley