Were they married? Is Agnes hers?.....

Post by **emanday** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:52 pm

I've now got the 1764 birth entry for my GGGG Grandmother, Margaret Bryan, baptised by Wm Dalrymple. Below her is her older sister, Agnes, born two years before in 1762, baptised by Wm McGill and there is a note "N.B. This was neglected by parents".

Both entries state that she they are "lawful" daughters of James Bryan but Margaret's entry does give Isobel Fullarton as mother, while Agnes' entry only says, "to above James Bryan" no mention of Isobel. Should I assume that she was also Agnes' mother?

The reason I am querying this is that every other entry on the page states "spouse" after the mother's name, but not in Margaret's case.

I'd found Margaret and her three younger sisters on IGI previously, but Agnes is not listed with them.

Russell · Post by **Russell** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:30 pm

Hi Mary

Since the entries were made by different people they have used a differing style.
Since it states clearly that both are 'Lawful' daughters then they are both being recognized as James Bryan's children of a marriage acccording to Scots Law. It would be reasonable to assume they were to the same mother but there is a possibility that he married for a second time between one child and the next.
Absence of evidence of a second marriage would substantiate that assumption.
This is one of those times when there may never be clear evidence one way or the other even after you have checked Kirk Session minutes and the OPR.
This is not a brick wall, merely an impenetrable fog.
I can hear the microfilm readers whirring in your nearest LDS centre already.

Russell

Post by **emanday** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:09 am

Actually Russell, the entries were made by the same person, if the handwriting is anything to go by. The hand does change further down the page, but the different baptism "officiators" are in both hands.

Would it be likely that two ministers were baptising children in the same parish, or is it more likely that one was CoS and the other one was from one of the "split" congregations?

It's very confusing. As yet, I can find no marriage between James Bryan and Margaret Fullarton (assorted wildcards used) even though they had three girls after Margaret.

Russell · Post by **Russell** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:59 pm

Hi Mary
You haven't said where this was.
I wondered what the range of choice was in the parish in terms of available churches ?
If there were several options available the parish would be the Established Church whose minister was supposed to record all births and marriages within his parish even those of the opposition churches.
The lack of a marriage entry might mean that they were Secessionist, Episcopalian or some other sub-branch/sideshoot.
They may have been able to afford the cost of registration.
There may have been a change of minister and the comment'This was neglected by parents' may refer to the initial baptism of Agnes not being recorded.
Some Session Clerks were a bit picqued that some people living in their parish were not 'true believers' and made their own cryptic entries in a record.
What parish was it ?
Is there a record in the Fasti of Wm Dalrymple ?
How many other churches were in that parish ?
Were the later daughters baptised in the C.o.S. ?

Around that time in Kilbarchan the Secessionist church had a minister but no actual church building. (Imagine standing out in a field in the winter for the duration of a hell and damnation sermon.) Their records were handed down from one Session Clerk to his successor and kept at his home even after the church was built. You can imagine the state of some of the early records!!
Lots of 'Mays' and 'maybes'.

Russell

Russell · Post by **Russell** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:59 pm

Duplicate post deleted

russell

Post by **emanday** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:17 pm

It was in the Parish of Ayr, Ayr.

Margaret later got married in that same Parish. Her husband James McCrae (McCree) was from Monkton.

I've not looked at the other girls' entries yet and I wouldn't know where to look at the Fasti.

How would I find out what churches were in Ayr in that period?

Post by **emanday** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:40 pm

Bit of an update...

The OPR entries for the three following girls all now state that Isobel is James' spouse.

All three pages have both Dalrymple and McGill as baptising children. In fact two of the later Bryan girls were baptised by Dalrymple and the other one by McGill

The years are 1762, 1764, 1765, 1767, 1769. It seems that, at least for this period, there were two people officiating at baptisms, but all being recorded in the one register. It doesn't seem to me to be different churches, but would a parish church have two ministers working at the same time?

I'm very confused

Russell · Post by **Russell** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:53 pm

Hi Mary

Glad the OPR is sorting things out.
It does seem quite odd that there were two ministers almost taking turns officiating. I certainly haven't come across that situation anywhere else.
Maybe someone else will be able to show us an example.

I wondered if there were other churches of the same denomination in the parish the baptism might be carried out by one minister but recorded in the main parish church.

I know that Ayr had several different churches. I found them on an old Ordinance survey map of the town but can't remember where on-line I found it. ( I should write everything down but forget to remember -if that's not too Hielan')
I still wonder if James Bryan and Margaret Fullerton were outside the established church at the time of their marriage. So many churches in Ayrshire split and merged that it might take a local history/historian to sort it out.
Can't access 'my favourites' just now as I'm taking a class but will try to shove my daughter off my computer at home and look for the map site.

Russell

Post by **AndrewP** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:13 pm

Hi Mary,

It was regularly the case where "Chapels of Ease" and other churches opened within a parish, usually in the towns as they expanded, the main parish church was retained as the senior church and it held the Parochial Registers (which in time became the OPRs). In that situation it should be that more than one minister's name will appear in the records within the same timespan.

All the best,

AndrewP

Post by **emanday** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:08 pm

The "Chapels of Ease" sounds right, then.

It would be nice to find James and Isobel's marriage, just to satisfy myself thet they did marry, whether sometime between the births of the first 2 girsl and the other 3 really is academic in Scots law, but it's be nice to know when (IF) they actually did have benefit of church eventually