Francis McDougall .....

[Rosemary]

I am trying to find the birth of Francis McDougall, married to Agnes (also known as Elizabeth or Mary) Lightbody in 1840 in Donahadee, Co Down. On his marriage details it states he was born in 1821 in Paisley. He died before 1881, I think and the family ended up in Irvine, Ayrshire, via Dreghorn and Kilmaaarnock.
He was a blacksmith and may have lived in Dumfries at some point. I don't know when he died, either. He was known occasionally as Frank, too.
Can anyone help?

[Jack]

Hi Rosemary,

You'll probably have these details. Alas, i can't help with Francis' birth, but he died after 1861 - or even later if 19yr old Robert in 1881 is his son. The family fair moved around.
--
1861 cens Dreghorn 589 Ed 3 pg 15.
Francis McDougall 40, b Paisley
Agnes 41, b Ireland
Charlotte 19, b Ireland
Alexander 18, b Ireland
John 14, b Glasgow
James 9, b Kilmarnock
Elizabeth 7, b Kilmarnock
Francis 5, b Old Cumnock
William 3, b Dreghorn
--
1881 Census Place: Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Dwelling: 11 Glasgow Vennel
Source: FHL Film 0203599 GRO Ref Volume 595 EnumDist 4 Page 17
Agnes MC DOUGAL W 60 F Ireland Rel: Head
Francis MC DOUGAL U 25 M Cumnock, Ayr, Scotland Rel: Son Occ: Coal Miner
Robert MC DOUGAL U 19 M Dreghorn, Ayr, Scotland Rel: Son Occ: Painter
--

Seems there is another blacksmith Francis born Paisley just before yours.

1881 Census Place:Bathgate, Linlithgow, Scotland
Dwelling: Main Street Simpson's Land
Source: FHL Film 0203706 GRO Ref Volume 662-2 EnumDist 3 Page 5
Francis MC DOUGALL M 64 M Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Blacksmith
Jane MC DOUGAL M 54 F Ireland Rel: Wife
--

Suppose you have to keep in mind that there might not be a birth record for your Francis at all. Ain't i the cheery one!

Hopefully he died in Scotland, and i shouldn't think there would be too many with the name Francis McDougall. It might need a wild card search though to cover some spelling variations.

Jack

[Andy]

My interest is WELL piqued in this but I've still got to start my Christmas Shopping to do.

I promise to come back to it in the New Year.

[Andy]

No couldn't resist it!

Last night after a couple of quick checks I couldn't find the death of Fra* McDou* or McDu* married to a Lightbody anywhere in Scotland.

However, son Francis got married in 1883 and his father is listed as Francis a Blacksmith (journeyman) BUT NOT DECEASED!!!

Three of the children married in Ayrshire, Charlotte in 1863, Alexander in 1865 and John in 1869.

The son, James died in Irvine in 1879. None of these certificates indicate that Francis was dead.

Not until Robert jumps the broom in 1894 is the father (and mother who died in 1892) listed as deceased.

By the by "Birds of a Feather" come into play yet again.

In 1881 Agnes was staying at 11 Glasgow Vennel

At 13 Glasgow Vennel:

Dwelling: 13 Glasgow Vennel
Census Place: Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203599 GRO Ref Volume 595 EnumDist 4 Page 18
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Andrew HUNTER W 68 M Ayre, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Postman
Henry HUNTER 12 M Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Ann MC DOUGALL 10 F Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Grandaught
Occ: Scholar
John MC DOUGALL 8 M Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Grandson
Occ: Scholar

John married Margaret Hunter

And at number 15:
Dwelling: 15 Glasgow Vennel
Census Place: Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203599 GRO Ref Volume 595 EnumDist 4 Page 18
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
John MC DOUGALL M 33 M Kilmarnock, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Miner Coal
Margaret MC DOUGALL M 33 F Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Occ: Miners Wife
Mary MC DOUGALL 6 F Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Daught
Occ: Scholar
Janet MC DOUGALL 1 m F Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Daught
Occ: Scholar
Margaret GORMAN M 24 F Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Mother
Occ: Bonnet Maker
Ellen GORMAN U 7 F Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
Jean GORMAN U 2 F Irvine, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Daur

When Blacksmith Francis McDougall died in 1896 (in Dumfries just down the road from Ayr) The "Widow" signs her name Jane McKinstry. There is no record of a marriage or any children for Francis and Jane McKinstry. I reckon we're going to have to wait until the 1861 and 1871 census comes online to sort out this lot. If we can find Francis and perhaps Jane in 1861 we'll know it's a different couple. If not there may be a wee skeleton in the cupboard.

There should be a marriage of Francis and Jane but isn't.

Jane was married to a Samuel McCord, they had at least one child by 1856, Christina. Here's the family (WITHOUT JANE) in 1881:

Dwelling: 76 Wallace St.
Census Place: St Quivox, Ayr, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203590 GRO Ref Volume 578 EnumDist 21 Page 11
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Samuel MC CORD M 49 M Ireland
Rel: Head
Occ: General Labourer
Christina MARTIN M 19 F Newton, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Daur
James MC CORD U 16 M Newton, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Barber
Alexander MC CORD 13 M Newton, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
William MC CORD 11 M Newton, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Jane HOUSTON W 40 F Ireland
Rel: Boarder
John HOUSTON U 16 M Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Boarder
Occ: Mill Worker (Labourer
John MC FAYDON U 78 M Islay, Argyll, Scotland
Rel: Boarder
Occ: General Labourer

The children can be found under an IGI search as McCord and Cord.

Jane McCord or Cord didn't die before 1881, she and Samuel were married in Carrickfergus in 1843. There is only one possible death of a Jane McCord/McKinstry/McDougall

Samuel died in 1900 and is listed as a widower of Jane McKinstry but there is no possible death of Jane between 1881 and 1900.

So it really looks like Jane left Samuel and Francis left Agnes. In the which case you'll find Francis death in in 1896 in Dumfries but before adopting him hang on for the online censuses.

[Rosemary]

Cheers, Jack and Andy. What would I do without you guys?
Really appreciate your help....and before Christmas, too. Hope you had a good New Year.
I had heard about Francis from Dumfries but not all the connections. I will wait with baited breath until the next censii are available!
Incidently, the Francis from Paisley mentioned by Jack in the 1881 census isn't birth-listed in Paisley, either. What a frustrating business this is

[jeanie A]

Hi All,
I am also researching this line. On Blacksmith's death cert it has him either as 70 or 90. I have been sent the image and its not very clear. So 64 in 1881 and 70 in 1896!!
We do have him on the 1861 census, so its the 1871 which may show something.
I had also noted that the 'witness' had used her maiden name. Re the fact that Francis does not appear as dead on childrens marriage certs, I have had that before, when I know that they have been dead. It's just been missed off the cert. However. it is certainly intriguing!!
Regards
Jeanie

[Jack]

Hi Rosemary,

I've seen a lot of inconsistencies on censuses, but these have more than usual - IF it's the same family. Certainly looks like it though.
--
1851 cens 597 (512) Ed 3 pg 2 (Kilmarnock)
Dean Lane, Crook's Land, No 3.
Francis McDOWELL, head, marr, 30, hammer man, b Co. Down, Ireland
Agnes McDOWELL, wife, 32, sewer, b Donaghadee, Ireland
Charlotte McDOWELL, daur, 10, scholar, b Co. Down
Alexander McDOWELL, son, 8, at school, b Donaghadee
John McDOWELL, son, 6, at school, b Co. Down
James McDOWELL, son, 1, -------- b Kilmarnock
--
1861 cens 589 Ed 3 pg 15 (Dreghorn)
26 Warwickhill Hamlet.
Francis McDOUGALL, head, marr 40, blacksmith j/man, b Paisley
Agness McDOUGALL, wife, 41, --------- b Ireland
Charlotte McDOUGALL, daur, u/m 19, muslin sewer, b Ireland
Alexander McDOUGALL, son, u/m 18, coal miner, b Ireland
John McDOUGALL, son, 14, coal miner, b Glasgow
James McDOUGALL, son, 9, scholar, b Kilmarnock
Elizabeth McDOUGALL, daur, 7, scholar, b Kilmarnock
Francis McDOUGALL, son, 5, -------- b Old Cumnock
William McDOUGALL, son, 3, -------- b Dreghorn
==============

And here are the McCords / Cords. I think Samuel aged as 49 in 1881 shd be 59, because if the former then he'd be born abt 1829, and only 14 when marrying in 1843.
The parents of 2yr old Samuel in 1861 are Samuel CORD & Jane STEWART (an IGI transcription error?).
--
1851 cens 578 (494) Ed 8 pg 11 (Ayr)
Isle Lane.
John MARSHALL, head, widower 28, ?----? shoemaker, b Kilmaurs
Samuel McCORD, visitor, marr, 25, ag. labourer, b Ireland
Jane McCORD, visitor, marr, 22, ag. labourers wife, b Ireland
Samuel McCORD, visitor, 1, at home, b Ayr, Ayrs.
James DINNEY?, visitor, 15, haulier?, b Ayr, Ayrs.
[Index has James as McCord, but it looks like Dinney]
--
1861 cens 578 Ed 4 pg 22 (Ayr)
180 High St.
Samuel CORD, head, marr, 39, stone breaker, b Ireland
Jane CORD, wife, 37, hand sewer, b Ireland
Mary CORD, daur, 9, scholar, b Ayr, Ayrs.
Samuel CORD, son, 2, ------ b Ayr, Ayrs.
[can only presume the first Samuel died young]
======
Jack
-----
ps - i've been amending this since i first sent it.

[ldmccann]

Just to add to the fund of knowledge, Agnes died in 1892, death entry as follows:-
Death Entry 1892.Vol 595,No 64, Irvine;Agnes McDougall,m.s. Lightbody;
At 8pm on 2 March 1892 at 62 High Street,Irvine. 80yrs. Widow of Francis McDougall,Blacksmith. Father- John Lightbody,Coachman,(Deceased). Mother- Agnes Lightbody,m.s. Thomson,(Deceased). Debility from age. Burn on foot & leg for 3 days. Heart Failure. Informant- Robert McDougall,Son.
Just to add to the discrepencies aged 80 would mean b 1812, but various census records make her b abt 1820.

[jeanie A]

Following someones suggestion I have just looked at the death cert of Francis.This is the Francis/Jane cert. It has his father as John McDougall and mother Elizabeth Moore.
I think it say's Sailor but its hard to read. I cannot find a marriage for John and Elizabeth. Am off to do a search for middle names of the girls.
Any other thoughts?