James Ogilvie and naming pattern

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WendyT
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:43 am

James Ogilvie and naming pattern

Post by WendyT » Tue May 06, 2014 7:01 am

I am at a deadened trying to find the parents of my James Ogilvie and wonder how strongly we can rely on naming patterns. All of the names of the parents and children are frequently used through the generations.

Following the pattern of first born son - maternal grandfather - second born daughter - maternal grandmother. My grandfather's children in chronological order are: William, Agnes, Isobel. James, Alexander, Jean, John, William, Robert, William (all born in Carmyllie in the period 1791 to 1813) - that would give us his parents names as William and Isobel

I did find a baby James born in Monikie, Angus to a William Ogilvie and Isobel Smith in 1762.

Complications - clearly the first William died and I don't know when - would that have had any effect on their naming of the children?

James wife's parents names were William and Ann.

Is there an expert on naming patterns who can help me work this out?

LesleyB
Posts: 8184
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:18 am
Location: Scotland

Re: James Ogilvie and naming pattern

Post by LesleyB » Tue May 06, 2014 6:53 pm

Hi WendyT
Following the pattern of first born son - maternal grandfather - second born daughter - maternal grandmother
This would not be the usual pattern, which is: first born son - paternal grandfather - second born daughter - paternal grandmother

Best wishes
Lesley

WendyT
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:43 am

Re: James Ogilvie and naming pattern

Post by WendyT » Tue May 06, 2014 9:33 pm

My mistake I should have written as you have corrected. William was his first son's name - it was also the name of his wife's father but if they followed
the usual naming pattern it could have been his father's name too.

thanks for drawing my attention to the mistake.
regards
Wendy

trish1
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:38 am
Location: australia

Re: James Ogilvie and naming pattern

Post by trish1 » Wed May 07, 2014 2:51 pm

Hi Wendy - a few random thoughts

I went browsing to find the name of James' wife and it seems to be Anne Coullie/Cowlie - so that didn't lead me far. If Ann can equate to Agnes (I am not sure of that) then your names could be following the naming patterns - then I notice that the baptism of daughter Agnes has her mother's name as Agnes - so perhaps they are treated as the same in that parish.

(I think also the last child in your list is Margaret - not another William - which may be another clue as to family members)

In all my Scottish families - until about 1870 naming patterns were used. When they had run out of the basic 6 names (in your case here - 4 names as there were 2 duplicates) they often used sibling names for later babes. Thus you might try finding any siblings to James son of William and Isobel - and also check for siblings to Anne Collie/Cowlie - to see if those names are in the list of children. Check if the Children of James and Anne used naming patterns, check if the possible siblings of James and Anne used naming patterns - the results of this may help to decide if James followed the patterns. How far is Monikie from Carmyllie?

The baptism of the 2nd William may give an idea as to when the first William died - but if James and Anne both had fathers named William - it was probably important that they had a surviving son called William - not really impacting the naming patterns.

Slightly off topic - is this the baptism of Anne Coulie - I thought likely, given that there are marriage banns for James & Anne in Panbride)
Ann Coulie
Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
christening: 24 January 1768 PANBRIDE,ANGUS,SCOTLAND
father: William Coulie
mother: Ann Smith

Possible that James and Anne were related through their mothers - which may explain how they came together. Checking out Smiths can be tricky - although not so many in Scotland cf. England.

Trish

jgmills
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Dumfries and Galloway

Re: James Ogilvie and naming pattern

Post by jgmills » Wed May 07, 2014 10:59 pm

trish1 wrote:Hi Wendy - a few random thoughts

I went browsing to find the name of James' wife and it seems to be Anne Coullie/Cowlie - so that didn't lead me far. If Ann can equate to Agnes (I am not sure of that) then your names could be following the naming patterns - then I notice that the baptism of daughter Agnes has her mother's name as Agnes - so perhaps they are treated as the same in that parish.

Trish
Ann can be a synonym of Agnes. See the website http://www.whatsinaname.net this can be a useful little tool when having trouble with names.

John

trish1
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Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:38 am
Location: australia

Re: James Ogilvie and naming pattern

Post by trish1 » Thu May 08, 2014 2:00 am

jgmills wrote:
Ann can be a synonym of Agnes. See the website http://www.whatsinaname.net this can be a useful little tool when having trouble with names.

John
Thanks for the link & the information John - that makes the naming patterns here look much better.

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