Regarding Sir John Sinclair, 1st Baronet

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matiasfortuno
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:21 pm

Regarding Sir John Sinclair, 1st Baronet

Post by matiasfortuno » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:39 pm

Hi!

I need feedback on the following. With your help (see my previous post in viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18755 ) I discovered that my ancestor Archibald Erskine Robson (born Archibald Robertson) was the son of the servants of Kellie's Castle, in Fife.

But, something doesn't add up (for me, at least). If you read the mentioned post, my ancestor got education, became a sea captain, negotiated with the recently born chilean government, started the Nitrate business in the region.... too many accomplishments for the "son of the servant".

Things got a little more interesting when I found the baptism registration, in Carnbee (near Kellie, Fife): there appear as witnesses, Archibald Erskine Earl of Kellie, and, Sir John Sinclair

Archibald Erskine of Kellie was the "boss"... but what is "Sir John Sinclair" doing there???

Some questions that I have:

- By that time, can anyone use the title "Sir" (like today one greets like, 'hello, sir')
- "Sir John Sinclair", could be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_John_ ... st_Baronet ? I mean, it could be. Sir John Sinclair had lost his 1st wife by the time. He would have gained the "Sir" title when made Baronet, a year before.
- Isn't it too strange? If it is him, what is he doing in a small parish in Fife acting as a witness?

THANKS!!

Matias

The baptism registration can be looked up here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BOE2Y8 ... tKHt7/view

Currie
Posts: 3788
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:20 am
Location: Australia

Re: Regarding Sir John Sinclair, 1st Baronet

Post by Currie » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:20 am

Hello Matias,

The Sir John Sinclair of Statistical Account of Scotland fame, and much more, was a Scottish politician and represented Caithness in the House of Commons for several decades from 1780. There were a total of 45 politicians representing Scotland in the Commons.

The 7th Earl of Kellie was also a Scottish politician, from 1790 being one of only sixteen representing Scotland in the House of Lords.

That alone is probably a good enough reason for them to be meeting, and they probably had many other common interests.

This document, possibly explains why Archibald Erskine was a witness at the baptism. Sir John Sinclair, being present, possibly just went along for the ride. https://books.google.com.au/books?id=WL ... AAJ&pg=PA4

“His Lordship’s private virtues were of the most amiable kind. He was a dutiful son, an affectionate brother, a steady friend, an obliging neighbour, and to his servants a kind and indulgent master.”

All the best,
Alan

WilmaM
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Location: Falkirk area

Re: Regarding Sir John Sinclair, 1st Baronet

Post by WilmaM » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:51 am

I was wondering, if there were any papers or documents relating to the Earl or Kellie Castle, that might give an idea of Mr Robertson's role in the Earls household.

He is noted as being a servant, but what did he do? Groom or footman type of servant.Or was he a more exhalted rank, secretary or estate manager. Still a servant, in that he served his employer, but of a much higher intelect and paid role that the term servant means to us today.

The National Library of Scotland might be a good place to look, but I've no experience searching there.

Currie
Posts: 3788
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:20 am
Location: Australia

Re: Regarding Sir John Sinclair, 1st Baronet

Post by Currie » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:55 am

Maybe there’s something here? Sir Charles Erskine, of Cambo, replaced the 7th Earl.
“Financial and legal papers relating to the Fife estates of Cambo, parish of Kingsbarns, 1663-1853, and Kellie, parish of Carnbee, 1734-1836” http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nras ... =1800&di=y


Odds and ends regarding the 7th Earl of Kellie.

Difficult to read but it seems that in 1779 Major Erskine of the 11th Regiment of Foot has upset the Sheriff and other officials in Dublin and they have requested that the Lord Lieutenant remove the 11th Foot from Dublin duty. https://books.google.com.au/books?id=2v ... 22&f=false

Morning Herald, London, Monday, Feb. 25, 1782
PROMOTIONS.
War-Office, February 23.
104th reg. of foot, Major Archibald Earl of Kellie, of 11th foot, to be lieutenant-colonel.

London Gazette, July 13, 1782
Commissions ….. dated June 29 1782.
11th Foot, Brevet Major John Glover, of the 32d Regiment of Foot, to be Major, vice Archibald Earl of Kellie, who retires.

Public Advertiser, London, Wednesday, July 28, 1790
Election of the Sixteen Peers.
Earl of Kellie, 35 votes.

Observer, London, Sunday, Dec. 4, 1791
Fashionable Residences.
The Earl of Kellie at Colensburgh.

Star and Evening Advertiser London, Tuesday, Dec. 27, 1791
The Earl of Kellie has left the Castle of Kellie, Fifeshire, and is on his journey to London.

The Matrimonial magazine, January 1793
The Earl of Kellie leads the second daughter of Mr Coutts, the Banker, to the Hymenial Altar on his return from Italy.
(This publication is probably more of a Fish and Chips wrapper than a newspaper, but perhaps he went to Italy.) https://books.google.com.au/books?id=WX ... oC&pg=PA38

Sun, London, Saturday, May 18, 1793
The Earl of Kellie yesterday left town for Scotland.

St. James's Chronicle or the British Evening Post, London, January 21, 1794
London …… .The other presentations to the King at the Levee were ……… Mr. Erskine Envoy Extraordinary from his Highness the Pope, by his uncle the Earl of Kellie, when he delivered his Letters of Credence.

The World, London, Monday, Apr. 21, 1794
The Earl of Kellie is gone to Kellie Castle, Fifeshire.

London Chronicle, London, May 16, 1797
On the 8th inst., died at Kellie Castle, the Right Hon. Archibald, Seventh Earl of Kellie. He is succeeded in his titles by his cousin, Sir Charles Erskine, of Cambo, Bart. a Captain in the Fifeshire Fencible Cavalry.

Alan

matiasfortuno
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:21 pm

Re: Regarding Sir John Sinclair, 1st Baronet

Post by matiasfortuno » Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:44 am

Hi, thanks, I am reading your insights and comments.

matiasfortuno
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:21 pm

Re: Regarding Sir John Sinclair, 1st Baronet

Post by matiasfortuno » Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:05 am

WilmaM wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:51 am
I was wondering, if there were any papers or documents relating to the Earl or Kellie Castle, that might give an idea of Mr Robertson's role in the Earls household.

He is noted as being a servant, but what did he do? Groom or footman type of servant.Or was he a more exhalted rank, secretary or estate manager. Still a servant, in that he served his employer, but of a much higher intelect and paid role that the term servant means to us today.
In this book, Charles (Charlie) Robertson appears as a butler to Alexander Erskine, 5th earl of Kellie, AE7' father. :
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Rdl5vhO1-5
(Search for Charlie Robertson)

So at least we know he is loyal and served the family for some years.

WilmaM
Posts: 1656
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:46 am
Location: Falkirk area

Re: Regarding Sir John Sinclair, 1st Baronet

Post by WilmaM » Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:44 am

In this book, Charles (Charlie) Robertson appears as a butler to Alexander Erskine, 5th earl of Kellie, AE7' father.
That's what I expected, Butlers , I understand controlled the running of the household and would be the highest paid and most trusted. If our Mr Robertson served at least 3 Earls [ including the brother in between] then he must have been not only loyal, as you say, but trusted, and his family would have been equally of a higher status and intellect/intelligence.
Being such avant-garde characters, both the 6th & 7th Earls would have made life very interesting in Kellie Castle .

I have absolutely no problem with the notion that the Butler's son would be educated and have interesting connections in higher places. As your research has shown.

This has a good overview of the Butler history.
https://poloandtweed.com/blog/history-of-the-butler

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