Pollock or Pollick of Williamsburgh

[Jack]

Hi Hugh,
Again, if i could try and answer.
==
1 - Censuses aren't always exactly correct...but they are usually always helpful in some way.
Maybe the enumerators in 1851 & 1861 had different opinions on which county the village of Busby lay.
I wouldn't worry unduly about it as both censuses have Janet as born in Busby.

2 - Before 1855 it wasn't a legal requirement to have children registered - so that's maybe why Andrew's birth can't be found.
Possibly none of the NEIL children are recorded, but the censuses help us with names and birthplaces (if correct!).

3 - Like yourself i'm somehow doubting the Andrew NEIL who died in 1917.
Suppose only way to eliminate him would be to find his MC - but difficult without knowing who his parents are.
And unless the address of 28 Hinshaw St can be tied into the son Andrew (MC or DC) then he may be hard to identify too....
Maybe finding him in earlier censuses would help; but again how do we know it's the same father Andrew.
I dare say an in depth search of them MIGHT find the family, but there are more than one Andrew Neil....

4 - You're right, John (23), Alexander (17), and Andrew (11) NEIL are not with the family in 1861.
(these ages are approximately what they'd be in 1861)
John may be married, Alexander working away from home, but i'd have expected Andrew to with his parents.
On the other hand, possibly all had died by 1861 - we just don't as yet know what happened to them.
==
>1861 census 644/8 Ed 63 p 5 (Barony - Anderston)
>9 Woodside Crescent. (with Hugh Moncrieff)
>Agnes POLLOCK: servant, 47, Domestic Serv, b: Old Monkland, LKS

The above Agnes might be another person altogether from your Agnes below; hence as born Old Monkland.
(which is the Coatbridge area - about 10 mls away from Cathcart; in a west by north direction)
Though it's not unknown for someone to be recorded twice; at different addresses.
(and as has been mentioned - not all censuses are correct)

>1861 census 644-9 Ed 30 pp 9-10 (Govan - Tradeston)
>7 Eglinton Place. (with James Neil)
>Agnes POLLOCK, sis-in-law, 47, domestic servant, b Cathcart, LKS
==
The reason i'd said Eaglesham for Agnes' brother Alexander's birthplace was because i thought you knew...
Seems i've mis-interpreted what you'd sent me!
[...a James Pollick and a Janet Boll married 12 Apr 1795 in Eaglesham Renfrew
which seems to fit with location, birth of first child, and spouse first name...]
I still have doubts that the family were anywhere near Paisley - but i've no real basis for saying this.
Brother Hugh S. having Glasgow as his birthplace may well be true - the family could've been in the Gorbals by around 1817.
Or that he arrived in Glasgow as a very young child and grew up believing it was his birthplace.

I know the will of Hugh S. Pollock says he has 2 nephews, but that doesn't mean to say they were brothers.
Very possibly they were, but on the other hand, maybe not - such a pity their names weren't given!
==
Jack
====
ps,
You already know of some of these LIVINGSTON details - just to keep it all together.
We don't actually know who this Margaret POLLOCK is, and sadly we may never find out.
Did she die sometime around the mid 1840s?
Widower John LIVINGSTON then re-marrying a Mary GLASS in Jan 1847?

John's DC may show he was married twice.
Also; the MCs of children James & Mary may show they have different mothers.
(unsure what happened to their older brother John after 1851)
Now i don't know if the family in 1841 is the same family in these later censuses - but a fair possibility.
You'll notice wee John as born Glasgow in 1851.

Is it coincidence that James NEIL & John LIVINGSTON and their families were both in North Berwick?
And both possibly having a wife with the surname of POLLOCK?
All this can only be speculation at the moment - but no harm in having a wee note of it.
==
JOHN LIVINGSTON
MARGARET POLLOCK
Marriage: 12 JAN 1840 Gorbals, Lanark, Scotland
==
1841 cens 644-2 Ed 72 p 6 (Gorbals - Hutchesontown)
31 Rutherglen Loan.
John LIVINGSTON, 25, shoe., b SCT
Margaret LIVINGSTON, 25, ----b SCT
John LIVINGSTON, 1, -----------b LKS
James POLLICK, 84, -------------b SCT
Agnes POLLICK, 20, cotton p.l.w., b SCT
==
JOHN LIVINGSTON
MARY GLASS
Marriage: 11 JAN 1847 North Berwick, East Lothian, Scotland
==
1851 census 713 Ed 3 p 1 (North Berwick)
West Gate.
John LIVINGSTONE, head, 34, shoemaker, b Luing?, ARL
Mary LIVINGSTONE, wife, 30, --------b North Berwick, Haddingtonshire
John LIVINGSTONE, son, 10, --------b Glasgow, LKS
James LIVINGSTONE, son, 7, -------b North Berwick, Haddingtonshire
Mary LIVINGSTONE, daur, 3, -------b North Berwick, Haddingtonshire
-
1861 census 713 Ed 1 p 8 (North Berwick)
West Gate.
John LIVINGSTON, head, 43, shoe maker, b Kilbrandon, ARL .................. [died 1861 - 1871?]
Mary LIVINGSTON, wife, 42, ----------b North Berwick, Haddingtonshire
James LIVINGSTON, son, 17, ?plumber?, b North Berwick, Haddingtonshire
Mary LIVINGSTON, daur, 13, scholar, b North Berwick, Haddingtonshire
==
1871 census 713-1 Ed 2 p 15 (North Berwick)
Market Place, High Street.
James LIVINGSTON, head, 27, fisherman, b North Berwick, Haddingtonshire
Mary LIVINGSTON, wife, 25, -------------------b Buckhaven, Fifeshire ................. [m/s Taylor]
[this i a possible for James 17 in 1861 - the 1867 MC would soon say if he is or not]
-
1871 census 713-1 Ed 1 p 11 (North Berwick)
West Gate.
Robert KELLY, head, 28, fisherman, b ..??..North Berwick, Haddingtonshire
Mary KELLY, wife, 23, --------------b North Berwick, Haddingtonshire .............. [m/s Livingston]
Mary KELLY, daur, 1, --------------b North Berwick, Haddingtonshire
Mary LIVINGSTON, mother, 56, b North Berwick, Haddingtonshire ........ [shd be mother-in-law]
==
1881 Census Place: Berwick North, Haddington, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0224027 GRO Ref Volume 713 EnumDist 2 Page 12
Dwelling: 4 Market Place
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
James LIVINGSTON M 37 M North Berwick, Haddington, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Fisherman
Mary LIVINGSTON M 36 F Buckhaven, Fife, Scotland Rel: Wife
Margaret LIVINGSTON 9 F North Berwick, Haddington, Scotland Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar
John LIVINGSTON 4 M North Berwick, Haddington, Scotland Rel: Son
Isabella LIVINGSTON 2 F North Berwick, Haddington, Scotland Rel: Daur
George A. W. LIVINGSTON 3mo M North Berwick, Haddington, Scotland Rel: Son
-
1881 Census Place: Berwick North, Haddington, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0224027 GRO Ref Volume 713 EnumDist 2 Page 26
Dwelling: 2 Shore
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Robert KELLY M 37 M North Berwick, Haddington, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Fisherman
Margaret KELLY M 32 F North Berwick, Haddington, Scotland Rel: Wife
Mary KELLY 11 F North Berwick, Haddington, Scotland Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar
James KELLY 6 M North Berwick, Haddington, Scotland Rel: Son
Jemesh KELLY 4 F North Berwick, Haddington, Scotland Rel: Daur
Catherine KELLY 1mo F North Berwick, Haddington, Scotland Rel: Daur
==

[talkhugh]

Jack,

I will digest some of this data and get back later. I am having problems with my PC and need to spend some time to have fixed first.

However, regarding your point #4 I can assure you that John and James Neil came to Jersey City NJ with both his parents in the mid 1860s - 62 to 64 I think. William died in Oct 1861 - on the job in Tradeston, Lanark.

I am afraid that you may be right about Agnes in the 1841 census but keep hoping otherwise. When I get the DC for Janet and Agnes - hopefully soon, it may solve this so let's wait until that arrives.

Until then much appreciated.

Hugh
ps Enjoyed your humorous posting about genealogy grammar.

[talkhugh]

Jack,

Got my PC problems fixed now - I hope.

Received the DCs from New Jersey researcher today BUT they didn't reveal Janet and Agnes Pollock's mother's maiden name! Big disappointment but no surprise I guess.

Another possibility arises! The two sister Agnes and Janet Pollock each had different parent names on their DC - accident maybe but then again maybe not. One's parents were James Pollock and Jessie Pollock and the other was John Pollock and Janet Pollock. Their brother Hugh Sterling Pollock's Dc showed James and Janet Pollock. I found an error between the DC and tombstone date of death for Janet so the John could just be one more error??

I did a quick search on Ancestry.com and found a John Pollock married to Janet Stirling on 15 Oct 1786 in parish of Barony in Glasgow, Lanark. There are others but this one attracted me because STERLING IS THE MIDDLE NAME OF HUGH STERLING POLLOCK A BROTHER OF JANET AND AGNES.

Do you have any way of checking this out more closely for me?

Would be helpful if you could.

Any other thoughts?

Thanks again.

Hugh

[Jack]

Hi Hugh,
Glad to hear you've now got the computer problems sorted; great machines when working smoothly....
Such a pity that Agnes & Janet's DCs have no mother's maiden name,
and slightly complicated with differing father's forename (but errors are fairly frequent on DCs).

Sorry for the delay in replying, i've just been trying to make some headway on the "POLLOCK"s.
But not with any provable success.
I've now also looked at the Poor Relief indexes for Glasgow & Paisley, but nothing suitable.
--
I can't see a DC for Alexander NEIL (b~1844) from 1855 - 1861.
Nor for his brother Andrew NEIL (b~1850) from 1855 to 1861.
So unless they turn up elsewhere, we can only presume at present that they both died 1851-1854.

The parents of the Andrew NEIL (70) who died in 1917 were Andrew NEIL & Janet TAYLOR.
He married Isabella KERR on 14 July 1865 [Isabella died 2 Mar 1873 aged 28]
So definitely "not yours", and can now be eliminated.
==
I still feel that 1841 & 1851 censuses are your family.
A few good coincidences for them, but i can see no way to prove it.
Certainly if Margaret POLICK is the sister of Hugh S. then we have 2 Scottish nephews...
Namely John & James LIVINGSTON.
The year Hugh's will was originally made out might be important.
John died aged 27 in 1868 at North Berwick.
James was still living in 1901 at North Berwick.

>1841 census 644-2 Ed 72 p 6 (Gorbals - Hutchesontown)
>31 Rutherglen Loan.
>John LIVINGSTON, 25, shoe., b SCT
>Margaret LIVINGSTON, 25, ----b SCT
>John LIVINGSTON, 1, -----------b LKS
>James POLLICK, 84, -------------b SCT
>Agnes POLLICK, 20, cotton p.l.w., b SCT

>1851 census 713 Ed 3 p 1 (North Berwick)
>West Gate.
>John LIVINGSTONE, head, 34, shoemaker, b Luing?, ARL
>Mary LIVINGSTONE, wife, 30, --------b North Berwick, Haddingtonshire
>John LIVINGSTONE, son, 10, --------b Glasgow, Lanarkshire...................mother Margaret POLICK
>James LIVINGSTONE, son, 7, -------b North Berwick, Haddingtonshire....mother Margaret POLICK
>Mary LIVINGSTONE, daur, 3, -------b North Berwick, Haddingtonshire....mother Mary GLASS
--
Here are the basic MC details of John LIVINGSTON & Margaret POLICK's sons John & James.

MC 1864. 713. 10. (North Berwick)
John LIVINGSTONE (23) u/m fisherman of North Berwick.
Parents - John LIVINGSTONE, shoemaker & Margaret m/s POLICK (dcd)
= 11 JUL 1864 at North Berwick. Forms of Church of Scotland.
Agnes GULLANE (19) u/m domestic servant of North Berwick.
Parents - James GULLANE, fisherman & Margaret m/s DICKSON (dcd)
Witnesses - JOHN LIVINGSTON & James LIVINGSTON.
[is witness JOHN his shoemaker father? can't see it any other way]
--
MC 1867. 713. 3. (North Berwick)
James LIVINGSTON (22) u/m fisherman of North Berwick.
Parents - John LIVINGSTON, shoemaker & Margaret m/s POLICK (dcd)
= 11 FEB 1867 at North Berwick. Forms of Church of Scotland.
Mary TAYLOR (21) u/m of North Berwick.
Parents - James TAYLOR, fisherman & Isabella m/s FORMAN (dcd)
Witnesses - James GULLANE & Mary LIVINGSTON.
--
And John & James' half sister Mary's MC -

MC 1868. 713. 11. (North Berwick)
Robert KELLY (26) u/m fisherman of Harbour, North Berwick.
Parents - James KELLY (dcd) fisherman & Janet m/s HOGG (dcd)
= 30 OCT 1868 at North Berwick. Forms of Church of Scotland.
Mary LIVINGSTON (20) u/m line baiter of High St, North Berwick.
Parents - John LIVINGSTON, shoemaker & Mary m/s GLASS.
Witnesses - Isabella GLASS & JOHN LIVINGSTON.
[again; is witness John her father? - can't be half brother John as he died 15 May 1868]
--
DC 1868. 713. 12. (North Berwick)
John LIVINGSTON (27) fisherman, d. 15 MAY 1868 at Harbour, North Berwick.
Married to Agnes GILLON [sic]
Parents - John LIVINGSTON, shoemaker & Margaret m/s POLICK (dcd)
Cause - pleurisy 17 days, emphysema 8 days.
Informant - John LIVINGSTON, father.
--
DC 1871. 713. 4. (North Berwick) [RCE Vol 1. Page 39. 3 Feb 1871]
John LIVINGSTON (50) bootmaker j/man.
Married to Mary GLASS.
Died - 17th pm or 18th am JAN 1871 in Harbour, North Berwick.
Parents ___LIVINGSTON (dcd), labourer & ___ LIVINGSTON m/s ___ (dcd)
Cause - found drowned in harbour, North Berwick.
Informant - James LIVINGSTON, son, Market St, North Berwick.

1st wife Margaret POLICK not given,
but the MCs of sons John & James prove that he was married to Margaret.
2nd wife Mary GLASS (55) died 31 Aug 1872 at Westgate, North Berwick.
Informant - Robert KELLY, son-in-law.
--
But where do you go from here?
At the moment it's all supposition....
Unless some living descendants of
James LIVINGSTON (b~1844) really, really know their ancestry way back to the 1700 & 1800s.
That though is just wishful thinking....
Jack
Edited; minor corrections.

[talkhugh]

Hi Jack,

You have cleared up that Andrew Neil that married Janet Kerr IS NOT OUR guy. Thanks - good to know.

I can confirm that William Neil was killed on the job in Tradeston on 9 Oct 1851 Death registered 11 Oct 1861 at Glasgow Single??

I can also confirm that James and John both came to the USA with their parents about 1865. I have found John's grave in Jersey City but not James' yet but I have census records for him there in 1871 and 1881.

So the only "two nephews" left in Scotland would have been Andrew and Alexander Neil. It is strange how they were not in the 1861 census there. To help zero in on this timing I will try and get a copy of Hugh Sterling Pollock's Will to see when it was made.

I can comment that the Neil family suffered tragedy frequently it seemed. They lost son William in 1861, son John who came to USA married and had 8 children but only 3 survived beyond age 12. So nothing would surprise me i.e. you could be right that they died earlier than Hugh Sterling's death in 1890.

Regarding Agnes Pollick and the James who were living with the Livingstons in 1841 - Agnes' age is reported as 20 - ANY CHANCE that was 26 miss read as 20?? If yes, it could be the real Agnes as her birth date is 1814 (26 or 27 yrs before 1841 census). James at 84 would put his birthdate at 1757 a bit too early but only speculation because he would have been 43 when their first child was born and 60 when their last child was born - not impossible but at least suspect. What do you think?

I suspect Margaret Pollick Livingston is James' daughter and Agnes her sister but a different family. But am not ruling them out yet either.

I agree it is wishful thinking to find knowledgeable relatives now.

Lastly, I was seeking help to connect Hugh Sterling to a Pollock married to Janet Stirling because of his middle name. That connection was proved an non fit.

Thanks for all your work Jack. We may solve this one day!

Hugh

[Jack]

Hi Hugh,
Just some thoughts - still nothing proved one way or tother; you mentioned,

"So the only "two nephews" left in Scotland would have been Andrew and Alexander Neil.
It is strange how they were not in the 1861 census there"

Maybe not the only "two nephews" as we don't actually know what their names are.
Nor that they were brothers either - many nephews aren't brothers!
There is always the chance Hugh S. POLLOCK had more brothers or sisters to those known.
ie, Alexander 1800, Janet 1804, Agnes 1814, Hugh S 1817
There is that 10 year gap between Janet & Agnes when others could've been born.
Might even have been children before Alexander.

Margaret LIVINGSTON m/s POLICK could fit in about 1812 though; but no proof whatsoever she was a sister.
Though there are a few good coincidences that make her a possible candidate.
--
I know you have this 1861 census.

>1861 census 644-9 Ed 30 pp 9-10 (Govan - Tradeston)
>7 Eglinton Place.
>James NEIL, head, marr, 57, engineer, b Kelso, ROX
>Janet NEIL, wife, marr, 56, -----------------b Busby, LKS
>William NEIL, son, 19, engineer pattern maker, b N. Berwick, ELN
>James NEIL, son, 14, upholsterer, b Govan, RFW
>Agnes POLLOCK, sis-in-law, 47, domestic servant, b Cathcart, LKS
>Elizabeth CAMPBELL, lodger, 17, muslin darner, b Glasgow, LKS

Certainly always the possibility that Alexander & Andrew NEIL (+John) were missed off.
But it would be very unusual if just 2 or 3 children were omitted; more chance of an entire family.
I still can't see the brothers together, or even individually, in all of Scotland 1861.
I still doubt a lad of 14yrs (Andrew) would've remained in Scotland when his family emigrated around 1864.
What was the occupation of John NEIL b~1838?
--
"...1841 Agnes' age is reported as 20 - ANY CHANCE that was 26 miss read as 20?"

It is definitely as 20, but who knows if it was meant to be written as that?
(by the way i can't find another Agnes in Scotland 1841 that might be suitable)

As you know, ages were supposed be "rounded down" in 1841.
So James at 84 should've been as 80, but the instructions were only up to the age of 75.
Maybe enumerator wasn't too sure what to do, so just entered his age as given, ie 84.
That explanation is, of course, only guesswork; we don't know why.
(and always the chance that 84 was wrong...!)
Looking at the neighbouring families, the enumerator practically always rounded down the ages.
--
"James at 84 would put his birthdate at 1757 a bit too early but only speculation because he would have been
43 when their first child was born and 60 when their last child was born - not impossible but at least suspect. What do you think?"

Well my own uncle married for the first time at 47 yrs...to a 21 yr old....
Although most men were in their 20s or maybe 30s, quite a few did wait.
Another possibility is that the James born abt 1857 could've married more than once.
This could make for unknown half siblings to Hugh S.....
--
So the bottom line is - no further forward.
I've run out of ideas on what else (within reason) could be tried.
It would take the monumental search of every "Pollock" DC (male & female) from 1855 to say 1900
and hope you find some with parents James & Janet.....
Then attempt to trace them all back through censuses, OPRs or whatever to find a common factor.
Very difficult - it might mean a "One name study" of the "Pollocks"....
Even going down that road there is no guarantee of success.
Any and all suggestions welcome!
Jack

[talkhugh]

Hi Jack,

I was about to post you when I received your latest. Thank you. You have me rethinking the Livingstone connection. I am warming up to your thoughts more and more. But where were the three Neil lads in 1861???

John Neil (b 1838) was listed as a machinist in both US census 1870 & 1880.

Your explanation of Agnes' age rounded makes a better fit. Her father and sister Margaret may have died in the early 1840s and with John L taking a new wife, Agnes then moved in with Janet and James Neil - which we know.

I saw in Janet Neil death register that she came to USA in 1865 - but that could be inaccurate too being only a register entry. If true that means that Agnes came to the USA BEFORE James and Janet Neil and the two boys. I don't know what that means in our searching process but want to mention it for your thoughts. Another thought, Hugh Sterling P named Janet's two boys by name (boys in the USA) in his Will - why wouldn't he have named her other two in Scotland. I am thinking perhaps because they were Margaret's boys and he did not know them as well or was not as close to them?? My, how I can dream??

I was talking to my cousin here in Canada last night and STRANGELY he was questioning Williamsborough being on Alexander's Pollock's tombstone. He said he remembered it as being Williamwood. I have a book which published the inscriptions on the tombstones - just looked it up again and see where the transcriber wrote "native of Williamstown Renfrew, Scotland". You were questioning this too. Does any of this help you in your thinking or vetting data or assumptions? For your info, I read the tombstone years ago with great difficulty being eroded with age so I may have made an early mistake of Williamsborough misleading us. What do these other two names mean to you?

Lastly, the possibility of James Pollock marrying twice does fit with the gap of almost 10 years between Janet and Agnes's birth. I will keep an open mind about this as we proceed.

One more thing - the cemetery in Jersey City called me to say they found basic records for James Neil, his son John and daughter-in-law and 5 of their children. I have asked to get pictures of their tombstones (IF ANY) to see what that might reveal. Will keep you posted.

Thanks again Jack - very much appreciated.

Hugh

[Jack]

Hi Hugh,
Quick visit, need to go out today!
With this occupation, there's a fair chance it's John b~1838.
Lodging with an Agnes Wallace (71) b. Glasgow.
--
1861 census 496 Ed 2 p 38 (Dumbarton)
199 High St.
John NEIL, Lodger, 23, Engine Fitter J/man, b. Glasgow, LKS
--
But as to brothers Alexander & Andrew, still none that would fit.
Jack

[talkhugh]

Jack,

Brief update.

The copy of Hugh Sterling Pollock's Will is in the mail to me so will have that date in a week. May have photos of the NEil grave in Jersey City by then too which may provide clues or confirm assumptions.

I looked at my previous searches on scotlandpeople and saw an Alexander Neil in the 1861 census 15 years old student living with an Uncle William Henderson a minister at 24 Carlton Place(I think) in Govan parish burgh of Glasgow. Henderson's wife's name looks like Janet but not sure age 47 born in Falkirk Sterlingshire. Can't read where Alex was born looks like Sterlingshire. The writing is very small but maybe you can read between the letters.

Is there any chance this Alex could be one of the missing Neil sons? Doesn't look like it to me but you would be a better judge of his history.

Hugh

[Jack]

Hi Hugh,
Alas you're right; not your Alexander NEIL....
This looks very much like the 15yr old nephew in Glasgow 1861.
==
Alexander NEILL - Birth: 7 Jun 1845, Larbert, Stirling, Scotland
Parents - Alexander NEILL (he's a farmer) & Jane Galloway RUSSELL
(Alexander NIELL & Jean RUSSELL, Marriage: 21 MAR 1841 Larbert, Stirling)
==
And below the uncle who young Alexander was with in 1861.
It would seem Jane/Jean RUSSELL & Janet RUSSELL were sisters.

William Dunlop HENDERSON & Janet Galloway RUSSELL
Marriage: 26 APR 1844 Saint Cuthberts (also S. Leith), Edinburgh, Midlothian
==
Hope you get something very helpful in the will of Hugh S. Also from the Neil gravestone.
It's needed...!
==
Jack