Tracing a WWII Perth RAF man (MIA): where to begin?

[Liz Turner]

Hi Camilla

Have you considered that although he was called Chick by the family, after an uncle Charles - that might have been his second name - he might have had another forename which might explain why he doesn't seem to appear where expected?

It might also be worth checking the CWGC site for the entry of the Charles that he was apparently named after. This might give you a location and another piece of information.

(If Warriston cemetery is not too far from you, it might be worth just double-checking to confirm that the grave marker for the man you believe is the wrong one, definitely is not him - just to rule it out).

I do hope you manage to visit the Scotland's People Centre and are able to identify the right man. If you do manage to identify "your" Charles Gray, you might well find this link helpful:

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/index.php

I found this site very helpful when I was trying to find information about my grandfather's half brother who was shot down over Germany in 1944. I was fortunate that Allan Henry Ross did appear as expected on the CWGC web site, giving his service number. This meant I could track his movements.

Good luck.

Liz

[Adam Brown]

It might also be worth checking the CWGC site for the entry of the Charles that he was apparently named after. This might give you a location and another piece of information

There are 12 Charles Duncans listed on SNWM which you can cross-reference against the CWGC database if you have any more information about the Duncans.

The information below is SURNAME, first name, number, date of death, SNWM Roll, rank

DUNCAN Charles 1258 13/03/1915 THE GORDON HIGHLANDERS Pte
DUNCAN Charles 14922 20/09/1917 THE ROYAL SCOTS (LOTHIAN REGIMENT) L/Cpl
DUNCAN Charles 1752 22/08/1917 THE BLACK WATCH (ROYAL HIGHLANDERS) L/Cpl
DUNCAN Charles 202830 12/10/1917 THE BLACK WATCH (ROYAL HIGHLANDERS) Pte
DUNCAN Charles 240898 19/04/1917 THE ROYAL SCOTS FUSILIERS Pte
DUNCAN Charles 3/2249 09/05/1915 THE BLACK WATCH (ROYAL HIGHLANDERS) Pte
DUNCAN Charles 359042 31/07/1917 LIVERPOOL SCOTTISH Pte
DUNCAN Charles 662 30/10/1914 THE GORDON HIGHLANDERS L/Cpl
DUNCAN Charles 71544 31/07/1917 ROYAL HORSE AND ROYAL FIELD ARTILLERY Gnr
DUNCAN Charles 72301 22/08/1917 MACHINE GUN CORPS L/Cpl
DUNCAN Charles Clyde Z/7764 13/07/1915 THE ROYAL NAVY Able Seaman
DUNCAN Charles S/6294 25/09/1915 THE BLACK WATCH (ROYAL HIGHLANDERS) L/Cpl

If he was named after someone who died in the Great War that would mean his d.o.b. is post-1914. It also means if he was in the RAF before September 1939 he would have been no older than 25 at that time (assuming a late August 1914 birth at the absolute earliest). If you can find the uncle he was named after you would have a date of death and, assuming the family story is correct, the birth must be afte that date.

Regards

Adam

[Adam Brown]

(If Warriston cemetery is not too far from you, it might be worth just double-checking to confirm that the grave marker for the man you believe is the wrong one, definitely is not him - just to rule it out).

Liz

The other Charles Gray was cremated at Warriston Crematorium so his grave marker only lists his name, rank, number, unit and date of death

Warriston Crematorium CWGC marker



Warriston Crematorium Cloisters



Regards

Adam

[Adam Brown]

..he was training as a pilot at Perth air base before the war began

From Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airwork_Services

In June 1936 Airwork opened No. 11 RAF Elementary and Reserve Flying Training School (ERFTS) at Perth in Scotland, under contract to the Air Ministry. The company developed accommodation and facilities there, and provided aircraft in the form of the de Havilland Tiger Moth.

It became No 11. Elementary Flying Training School in September 1939.

The title of your post is "Tracing a WWII Perth RAF man". Is it Perth because of his training or did he come from Perth?

Regards

Adam

[Adam Brown]

Ignore the name here but it gives some idea of what was going on at RAF Perth in 1939/40

http://www.battleofbritain1940.net/bobh ... lland.html

Kenneth Holland would have joined the RAFVR after he turned 18, some time in 1938/1939. Enrolled at the Airspeed College in Portsmouth he was in the right place and the right time. For Hampshire was already a centre for flying and aeronautical development. By September 1939 the world was on the brink of war. All enlisted RAFVR were called up on a permanent basis. Holland was then posted to Number 11 Elementary Training School at Scone near Perth in Scotland (Newton, p38.) His service number was 754503 This airfield was originally set up by the local government to expand passenger air services to the area but by the 1930s the focus had shifted to pilot training. (Royal Air Force History)

The Number 11 Elementary and Reserve Training School was established in 1936. It was setup and run by a private company called Airwork Ltd. As part of the government’s promotion of air training, private companies were allowed to contract for and provide training for military personnel. J. H Ginger Lacey, the RAF’s most successful fighter pilot during the Battle of Britain, trained with Airwork. Another famous student was George Pinkerton who was the first pilot to shoot down an enemy aircraft over Britain. (History of Scottish Aero Club, 2002 ) At the outbreak of the war in 1939 the title Reserve was dropped from the training school title.

Holland was familiar with at least one of the planes used in the training program - the Airspeed Oxford. When he was stationed at Perth the principal plane for pilot training was the DH 82 Tigermoth which first came into service in 1931 as a two-seated trainer. The Tigermoth was designed by de Havilland which had built many of the most successful fighters of the First World War. The company took over Airspeed in 1939. By 1940 the Number 11 Elementary Flying school was operating 90 Tigermoths. Holland would have developed his navigational skills in the Oxford but honed his pilot abilities in the Tigermoth. With its open cockpit, the DH 82 would have sorely tested the endurance of trainee pilots during the bitterly cold winter months In Perth.

In the early stages of the war there were few demands to cut training time and courses to fill front line squadrons. This was to change within the space of a few months. During the fall of France in May 1940 the RAF suffered its first significant pilot casualties. The need for pilots was now a matter of urgency

[Camilla]

Many thanks to everyone for your helpful and interesting posts -- I have only just seen the later ones, as I've been logged out and the wee alerts about new posts on this thread don't seem to have been reaching my email address. So, I'm sorry I haven't acknowledged earlier.

I visited the Scotland's People centre today and was finally able to work out the answer to this mystery. It's simple, in a sort of maddening way ... and it makes me feel a bit bad for wasting some of your time, but I just didn't know the circumstances and neither did my mum.

Charles Duncan Gray was born in 1915; I found his birth cert. and confirmed that he was the right man with the right parents. So far, so good, but still mysterious.

I then learned that his father died in 1916, as did his only sibling (I didn't even know about her until today; she was only 13 months at the time of her death, and Chick was about 2 months old). His mother Catherine went on to remarry in 1924. We had been aware she remarried, but had struggled to find the evidence, and believed it to have happened considerably later, after Chick was an adult. It looks as if the young Charles took his stepfather's surname, becoming Charles Duncan Powrie -- at least, that is the name under which he is recorded as presumed dead in 1940 whilst engaged in "air operations". It was (unsurprisingly) easy to find once we knew about the surname change.

He is commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial in Surrey. I'm so, so pleased to know this and hope it may be at least mildly interesting to anyone who was kind enough to post on this thread earlier. Thanks again -- the information and tips you provided have been useful and interesting, despite the fact I had you barking up the wrong tree on my behalf (sorry again).

[Liz Turner]

Hey Camilla

Never worry about that - sometimes a thread like this will help point someone else in the direction of information they are searching for; so even if you didn't eventually get what you needed here, it may yet help someone else! Many a time I've found helpful stuff on TS just by browsing around!

I'm glad to hear that you managed to resolve your hunt successfully!

Liz

[Alcluith]

Camilla

This is what is readily available about the crash that Sgt. Charles D Powrie was killed. It was a night attack by 214 Sqn on Düsseldorf.

On 7 December 1940 three crews were despatched half an hour ahead of the main force to act as pathfinders by locating and marking the target, Düsseldorf, with incendiaries.

The following is an excerpt from the personnel entry of Sqn/Ldr Geoff Cole:
“On 7 December 1940 his crew and two others were despatched half an hour ahead of the main force to act as pathfinders by locating and marking the target, Düsseldorf, with incendiaries. The weather was atrocious and Geoff Cole's aircraft lost both engines, falling several thousand feet before he was able to start them again. The other two 'pathfinder' aircraft, captained by **Flight Lieutenant Harris** and Flying Officer Dadswell, were both lost.”

Wellington Mark I C R2476

Date of loss : 7 December 1940

Crew of Wellington Mark I C R2476 consisted of :


Fg/Off David Allan Dadswell, 40367, Pilot, Royal Air Force, Nationality : United Kingdom, Aged 26
Sgt. Francis Thomas Buckingham, 758023, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve, Nationality : United Kingdom,
Sgt. William Henry James, 972478, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve, Nationality : United Kingdom,
Sgt. Edward Cooper Lee, 969132, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve, Nationality : United Kingdom, Aged 28
Sgt. John Cunningham Macaskie, 936778, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve, Nationality : United Kingdom, Aged 25
Sgt. Charles Duncan Powrie, 745352, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve, Nationality : United Kingdom, Aged 24


It does not tell if the aircraft were damaged/lost because of the weather or enemy action, most likely the latter.
You may be able to pursue finding if the crash site had been located? There is certainly more on the how dangerous it was to be a member of the crew of a "pathfinder" aircraft.

regards

alcluith