What's Your Gut Feeling About This

[stevewd]

Hi Folks,

Hope you are all enjoying your family genealogy tracking into 2026.

I'd just like to get you guys "expert" "gut feeling" about this situation.

I am in the process of looking for family in the Parish records rather than the Statutory records and as you all know this brings it's own unique problems. I had been brought here by a Statutory Death Register entry of my 3rd great grandmother Agnes GRAY to see if I could see her birth/baptism was in any Parish Records. I could find nothing, her birth parents (and my 4th great grandparents of course) according to her Death Register entry are Robert Gray and Elisabeth SHANKS. Not unusual but there certainly were other births with these two as parents but no sign of my own 3rd great grandmother.

This was the search return: (It'd be easier if I could figure out to show screenshot

GRAY CHRISTIAN, ROBERT GRAY/ELISABETH SHANKS FR609 (FR609) F 29/09/1816 651/20 / 544 Airdrie or New Monkland
GRAY JANE, ROBERT GRAY/ELISABETH SHANKS FR616 (FR616) F 15/02/1818 651/20 / 558 Airdrie or New Monkland
GRAY, JANET, ROBERT GRAY/ELISABETH SHANKS FR1355 (FR1355) F 09/09/1821 651/ 60 / 22 Airdrie or New Monkland
GRAY, MATTHEW ROBERT GRAY/ELISABETH SHANKS FR626 (FR626) M 03/10/1819 651/ 20 / 578 Airdrie or New Monkland
GRAY, MARY ROBERT GRAY/ELISABETH SHANKS FR1479 (FR1479) F 10/02/1839 651 60 / 266 Airdrie or New Monkland

All of these make perfect sense as this is the exact area it should be. I look and see a 10 year difference between the second last birth and the last one which does seem unsusual so I decided to look for more. I tried many different combos but eventually simply tried with the spelling of Elizabeth instead of Elisabeth.

This was the search return:

GRAY JOHN, ROBERT GRAY/ELIZABETH SHANKS FR759 (FR759) M 12/04/1829 626/ 30 / 38 Cadder
GRAY, ROBERT ROBERT GRAY/ELIZABETH SHANKS FR762 (FR762) M 15/03/1831 626/ 30 / 43 Cadder
GRAY, AGNESS ROBERT GRAY/ELIZABETH SHANKS FR749 (FR749) F 11/07/1823 626/ 30 / 18 Cadder
GRAY, ELIZABETH ROBERT GRAY/ELIZABETH SHANKS FR765 (FR765) F 08/11/1832 626 30 / 49 Cadder

As you can see I found an Agness GRAY which I can live with as my 3rd great grandmother (spelt with extra S which is common) but the fact that these returns were now from Cadder rather than New Monkland did cause me some concerns. They are all chronologically together. Is this a differnt family? I then put in a query that put them all together but that didn't seeem to help but I then hit the date button to put them in date order and it comeas out like this:

GRAY CHRISTIAN, ROBERT GRAY/ELISABETH SHANKS FR609 (FR609) F 29/09/1816 651/20 / 544 Airdrie or New Monkland
GRAY JANE, ROBERT GRAY/ELISABETH SHANKS FR616 (FR616) F 15/02/1818 651/20 / 558 Airdrie or New Monkland
GRAY, MATTHEW ROBERT GRAY/ELISABETH SHANKS FR626 (FR626) M 03/10/1819 651/ 20 / 578 Airdrie or New Monkland
GRAY, JANET, ROBERT GRAY/ELISABETH SHANKS FR1355 (FR1355) F 09/09/1821 651/ 60 / 22 Airdrie or New Monkland
GRAY, AGNESS ROBERT GRAY/ELIZABETH SHANKS FR749 (FR749) F 11/07/1823 626/ 30 / 18 Cadder
GRAY JOHN, ROBERT GRAY/ELIZABETH SHANKS FR759 (FR759) M 12/04/1829 626/ 30 / 38 Cadder
GRAY, ROBERT ROBERT GRAY/ELIZABETH SHANKS FR762 (FR762) M 15/03/1831 626/ 30 / 43 Cadder
GRAY, ELIZABETH ROBERT GRAY/ELIZABETH SHANKS FR765 (FR765) F 08/11/1832 626 30 / 49 Cadder
GRAY, MARY ROBERT GRAY/ELISABETH SHANKS FR1479 (FR1479) F 10/02/1839 651 60 / 266 Airdrie or New Monkland

As you can see all the Cadder ones are grouped together. If they had all been intermingled with each other I would have been more suspicious.My gut says this is the same family that moved for a certain time and the spelling of Elisabeth/Elizabeth is purely down to the perosn writing it as the parents were probably not very literate and wouldn't have seen that.

I'm thinking whilst in today's day and age the distance between these two churches is negligble, about 15 miles, I would think that in those days if you did move job 15 miles you'd attend the nearest church rather than one 15 miles away.

It still does concern me that there ios a seven year gap between the last Cadder and the last New Monklands but I suppose the "wee surprise" element could be at play.

So my basic gut feeling is that these are all my direct family and that these are all children from my 4th great grand parents Robert GRAY and Elis(z)abeth SHANKS. Anybody think that they are two diferent family and see something I haven't?

[AndrewP]

Hi Steve,

The censuses look to pull these two family groups together.

1841, 651/ 22/ 7, Airdrie or New Monkland, Lanark
GRAY, ROBERT, M, 55
GRAY, ELISABETH, F, 45
GRAY, ELISABETH, F, 8
GRAY, MARY, F, 2

1851, 651/ 11/ 7, Airdrie or New Monkland, Lanark
GRAY, ROBERT, M, 61, Head, born New Monkland
GRAY, ELIZABETH, F, 50, Wife, born New Monkland
GRAY, JOHN, M, 22, Son, born New Monkland
GRAY, ROBERT, M, 20, Son, born New Monkland
GRAY, ELIZABETH, F, 15, Daughter, born New Monkland
BOYD, AGNES, F, 7, Grand-daughter, born Glasgow

It would be worth your while downloading the originals of these census pages from www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk in case there is more information than the shows in the indexes of SP and transcriptions of Ancestry that I used.

Some may also have been together in the 1861 census.

Another piece of advice, don't be hung up on the spelling in any documentation from that era. In those times, the spoken word was more important, and the way it was written depended a lot on who was writing it.

All the best,

AndrewP

[stevewd]

Thanks AndrewP,

Often you have virtually no information but like in this case I have lots of information and it sometimes gets overwhelming and needs somebody not connected, new eyes.

I have come to a definite conclusion this time. They are one and the same family. I downloaded the two census you mention. 1) I searched for any other Robert GRAY in either Cadder or New Monklands for both years and came up blank. 2) The 1841 shows only 2 children and are compatible with who I am looking for. The two kids mentioned on it are the last two born of the complete set if they are put together. One was born Cadder(the last in Cadder) and the other born in New Monkland (the last in New Monkland) so this shows categorically that that are the same family.

The Census in 1851 is wierd in the sense that the kids ages seem compatible with who I have but the parents are 5 years out. I suspect though that ages are like spelling of names. People often didn't really know their exact age prior to the standardisation processes in 1855.

I definitely agree not to get hung up on spelling. I've just done a section of my family that came from Northern Ireland to Scotland (and most definitely couldn't read and write well if at all). I suspect at about 99% certainty the real name was KINGHORN but in around 100 to 150 times it was used (as middle names and surmanes of the original individuals and lots of their subsequent descedants) on documents NONE were right. I have KINGHAN, KINGHON, KINGAN, KINGON, KINAN, KINON, KIHAN and I think a KIHON. I was fully expecting a KLINGON, luckily Star Trek was 50 years later In all the documents not one had it right as KINGHORN. I can hear it now in the NI accent to my West of Scotland ear and it definitely wouldn't have been spelt KINGHORN.

Thanks again for your input AndrewP

[AndrewP]

Hi Steve,

One note is to be very careful with ages given in the 1841 census. The adult ages were all supposed to be rounded down to the nearest '5' or '10' number.

The instructions given to the census enumerator can be seen here:
https://www.talkingscot.com/censuses/census-1841.htm

Also in the 1841 census, the instruction for birthplaces in Scotland to be were they born in the county where they now reside, 'yes' or 'no'. Also, the relationship to the head of the household was not given. All these things were improved by the time of the 1851 census.

All the best,

AndrewP