JAMES DEVINE/DIVINE...BORN IN IRELAND(brick wall) help

[garydevine1995]

my g.g.ggrandfather died in hamilton,lanarkshire in 1891 and all i could find on a marriage certifacte, which i have now lost, said that he and his wife were was born in IRELAND. I have no idea where the Devines orginated from and while looking at a certifacte in 1857 it is spelt DIvine and not DEvine so it has changed . can someone please help ive hit a brick wall

[LesleyB]

Hi Gary

on a marriage certifacte, which i have now lost, said that he and his wife were was born in IRELAND

Can you remember where they married i.e. which country?

Do you have a copy of his death entry? When in 1891 did he die?
Have you seen him on the census?

Best wishes
Lesley

[SarahND]

Hello Gary,
Is this the family of James Divine and Mary Mullen? They are the only De/ivine family I can see in Hamilton in the censuses and the births of their children, as well as their marriage, are on the International Genealogical Index on Familysearch.org.

On Scotland's People there is indeed a marriage in 1857, in Hamilton, for a James D?vine and a Mary Mull?n. If you have lost the certificate, but originally got it from Scotland's People, it should still be available to you without charge. If you got it elsewhere, then you will have to pay to download a new one. The birth place is not likely to be on the marriage certificate, but the parents' names should be and that would help you find the right family in Ireland.

All the best,
Sarah

[Elwyn 1]

Statutory records of births, deaths & marriages started in Ireland in 1864 (1845 for Protestant and Non-Conformist marriages). Prior to that you are heavily dependant on church records, where they exist. (Some have been lost, some are incomplete and some are not yet on line).

To use church records effectively, because there’s no centralised index, ideally you need to know the ancestor’s exact religion, townland and parish in Ireland. (Otherwise it’s a needle in a haystack). Good sources for finding this are poor law applications (Mitchell Library in Glasgow) which can show townland or parish of origin. censuses (Census returns often include place of birth, and age (eg England/US. Look out also for other Irish people nearby in the censuses. Immigrants often settled near people they knew from home), military records, gravestones, family bibles, wills and obituaries. Birth certs for some locations (e.g. Scotland) include place of marriage of parents. The death certs should also show parents names.

Some Irish BDM records are searchable on line on the LDS pilot and Beta sites, but some records are still held by the individual church (some declined to allow their records to be copied) and so those websites are not the complete picture:

http://search.labs.familysearch.org/rec ... ctions&r=1

https://www.familysearch.org/

Once you have found where he came from you need to search the parish registers. For Northern Ireland, the Public Record Office (PRONI) has copies of many of the parish registers, and has a list of those held elsewhere. www.proni.gov.uk/
The records themselves are not on line and you need to search them in person or order them in to your local LDS library. PRONI is closed until April 2011 but there are temporary arrangements to view this data at Cregagh Library, Belfast. See PRONI website for details.

For the Republic of Ireland the equivalent records are held by the National Library http://www.nli.ie/

Elwyn

[garydevine1995]

Is this the family of James Divine and Mary Mullen? They are the only De/ivine family I can see in Hamilton in the censuses and the births of their children, as well as their marriage, are on the International Genealogical Index on Familysearch.org.

On Scotland's People there is indeed a marriage in 1857, in Hamilton, for a James D?vine and a Mary Mull?n. If you have lost the certificate, but originally got it from Scotland's People, it should still be available to you without charge. If you got it elsewhere, then you will have to pay to download a new one. The birth place is not likely to be on the marriage certificate, but the parents' names should be and that would help you find the right family in Ireland.

this is the exact marriage certifacte both of them say thet are just born in Ireland. they both had 4 children that i no of john(thats my line), thomas, mary and margaret. john was born in 1859 and i dont when the rest were born.

[garydevine1995]

Do you have a copy of his death entry? When in 1891 did he die?
Have you seen him on the census?

i dont have a copy of it but i did find them on the census all children were born in hamilton and the parents were bron in Ireland. after banging my head off a brick wall on google it says that most devine/divines come from londonderry but i thought they came from doneygaul(if that how you spell it).

[SarahND]

john was born in 1859 and i dont when the rest were born.

As I said, if you search the Catholic Baptisms on scotlandspeople.gov.uk for surname d?vin*, father's name James, you will find the baptisms of a number of children at St Mary's, Hamilton.

on google it says that most devine/divines come from londonderry but i thought they came from doneygaul(if that how you spell it).

On the 1851 census, James said he was born in Leitrim (which is just next to Donegal). I believe this is the correct family, although the transcription of mother and daughter should be "Rose" not "Case". The handwriting must have been messy or faint on this page.

1851
31 Muir St, Hamilton, Lanarkshire
James Divine, 30, Head, born Leitrim, Ireland, Lab
Case Divine, 28, Wife, born Leitrim, Ireland
Maria Divine, 8, Daughter, born Leitrim, Ireland
Bridget Divine, 6, Daughter, born Leitrim, Ireland
Case Divine, 4, Daughter, born Leitrim, Ireland
Catherine Divine, 9mo, Daughter, born Hamilton, Lanark
Patrick Doary, 28, Relative, born Longford, Ireland, Lab

A search of statutory deaths in Hamilton, surname d?vin* indicates that Rose died in 1856. Her daughter Catherine (second of that name, baptised 1856) died in 1857.

By 1861 he is already married to Mary, but the little girl Eliza was the daughter of Rose, according to the baptisms. Since James and Mary didn't marry until 1857, it makes sense.

More odd transcriptions, but you have to get used to that when you do genealogy!

1861
68 Main Street, Hamilton, Lanarkshire
James Deven, 36, Head, born Ireland, Out Door Labourer On Railway
Mary Deven, 34, Wife, born Ireland, House Work
Eliza Deven, 7, Daughter, born Hamilton, Lanarkshire
John Deven,2, Son, born Hamilton, Lanarkshire
James Deven, 12, Son, born Hamilton, Lanarkshire (not sure if this is meant to be 12 months or 12 years)

The little girl Eliza was the daughter of Rose, according to the baptisms. Since James and Mary didn't marry until 1857, it makes sense.

All the best,
Sarah

[garydevine1995]

this one sounds like them:

By 1861 he is already married to Mary, but the little girl Eliza was the daughter of Rose, according to the baptisms. Since James and Mary didn't marry until 1857, it makes sense.

1861
68 Main Street, Hamilton, Lanarkshire
James Deven, 36, Head, born Ireland, Out Door Labourer On Railway
Mary Deven, 34, Wife, born Ireland, House Work
Eliza Deven, 7, Daughter, born Hamilton, Lanarkshire
John Deven,2, Son, born Hamilton, Lanarkshire
James Deven, 12, Son, born Hamilton, Lanarkshire (not sure if this is meant to be 12 months or 12 years)

The little girl Eliza was the daughter of Rose, according to the baptisms. Since James and Mary didn't marry until 1857, it makes sense.

the only thing is james,i havent looked him up yet and eliza i havent heard about her i dont no when my relatives came ovr but i am thinking in 40's perhaps and that means eliza was born in 1854 so her mother would be buried here.if true rose muldoon and james devine would be here parents.

[SarahND]

Have a look at the Catholic records as suggested and you'll see that she is the daughter of James and Rose. There were also two babies named Catherine born to that couple, who both died young. One born 1850 and the other 1856.

All the best,
Sarah

[garydevine1995]

i am scotland people right now and looked up eliza dvine fathr james and mother rose and two of them came up with the exact same dates what one will i go for ?