Surnames

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:11 am

Hello Pinkshoes
Would you look at the Morrice's for me please. I know they are concentrated in Aberdeen but it would be interesting to see if they crop up anywhere else in numbers.
Thanks
MM

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:27 pm

This subject has interested me for a while now and I have been doing a little research of my own. Morrice for example comes from the Latin and is shown as Scottish Celtic. Its Morris derivative however, is shown as Welsh Celtic. There must be many other names that have been standardised like Dickson to Dixon, where the use of common phonetics might obscure true origins.
I also took a look at Smith out of interest or was it mischievousness? Although this is the most common name in Scotland and has been for a long time, it comes up as English. This might imply to people named thus that they originate from “the southern part Great Britain”.
There is something else that I am not sure about. The researcher’s analysis suggests that all purely Scottish names are Celtic in Origin. Can this be true? My history isn’t good but surely there were other cultural influences like the Picts, Gaels and Scandinavians amongst others. Wouldn’t their family names have gravitated into modern parlance?
Any further thoughts would oblige. Thanks for the information Smid.
Malcolm

DavidWW · Post by **DavidWW** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:14 pm

So where did all the farmers in Scotland get their horses shod ?

SMITH is an occupationally derived surname, and as every country I've even been in has the equivalent in their language as a surname I wouldn't expect Scotland to be different !

Black's "The Surnames of Scotland" records the usage "William the Smith" in 1199 in a Dunkeld charter

The researcher’s analysis suggests that all purely Scottish names are Celtic in Origin.

What a nonsensical thing to state, as it begs the question "Is there such a thing as a pure Scot?"

There's Highland and Lowland names as one split, and in each area, as you correctly suggest, many different sources for the surnames.

You missed out the Low Countries, - Webster for instance derives from their occupational term for a female weaver as well as from the Latin textor for a cloth weaver, - The Normans, the Flemish, Ulster Scots returning to Scotland, French.........

David

pinkshoes · Post by **pinkshoes** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:50 pm

Hello Malcolm - there are 879 Morrice's listed in 1881. Of these, 488 are in Aberdeenshire, but there are 123 in Kincardineshire as well. Other Scottish locations are : Angus 29, Lanark 13, Banff, Fife and Perth 11 in each, Midlothian 2 and Ross & Cromarty 1. After that the next highest concentration is Middlesex with 33, Lancashire with 26, W Riding of Yorks with 17 and Hereford with 16. The rest are scattered in penny numbers in England and a few in Wales.

If you want a copy of map and table, pm me.

Regards
Pinkshoes

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:38 pm

Hi Pinkshoes
Could I ask you to do a look up too please?

The name is Crout (also turns up as Croot, Croote, Croute) There was, as far as I'm aware, ONE family in Scotland from about 1820 in Easter Ross area - a James Crout born in England who married a girl from Fearn would seem to have been responsible for them all! They moved south from there - Aberdeen, Glasgow etc.

I'd be really interested to know in what areas of England the name features.

Thanks
Lesley

pinkshoes · Post by **pinkshoes** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:59 pm

Hi Lesley

James was certainly prolific

The results of the 1881 census are as follows :
Crout 75
Croot 429
Croote 42
Croute 2

Of that lot, only a few Crouts in Scotland - Aberdeen 7, Ross & Cromarty 5, Inverness 2 and Perth 1 (don't see any in Glasgow unless I've missed them). Croot, Croote and Croute - zilch in Scotland - they are all fairly well spread around England, as are the remaining Crouts. A lot of them in Cambridgeshire. Please pm me and I'll email you the table - think it's too long to post here.

Regards
Pinkshoes

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:28 pm

Thanks Pinkshoes
The ones in Glasgow, silly me - one was briefly there for a census in 1871:

1871 Tradeston, Lanarkshire.
33 So. Kinning Place
Robert Skinner H M 40 Labourer in Foundry born Rosshire Inverness
Catherine Skinner Wife Mar 34 Labourer's wife Rosshire, Carlossy [sic] should be "Calrossie"
Hugh Skinner son 5 Scholar born Lanarkshire, Glasgow
JessieAnn Skinner Dau age 3 born Lanarkshire, Glasgow
John Crout Nephew 22 Policeman Rosshire Hill of Fearn

...so doesn't count! I think he was in "Royal Reg Of Horse Guards" Hyde Park Barracks in 1881.
...and the other was a female Crout who married, and had died anyway before 1881, so again doesn't count!

Thanks for the info, willl PM you.
Best wishes
Lesley

rdem · Post by **rdem** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:51 am

I looked at the surname site and used my own surname and it seems to be "too" computer generated. It saw my name Dempsey with the ending "sey" and had it listed as locale name because in some instances it means a steading.
However, Dempsey is Irish for O Dempsey descendant of the proud and so is a patronym. However the maps were impressive.

Malcolm · Post by **Malcolm** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:16 pm

David,
You have made a sounding board out of a distortion of what I wrote. You skipped round all the points I was making, however badly in my little ramble and I did not refer to “a pure Scot” in the way you mentioned. There are however purely Scottish names, or if you prefer, names that are generically Scottish.
I don’t how the Low Countries got into the mix.

Thanks’ for the gen Pinkshoes. I don’t need a map though. Thanks’ again.
MM

DavidWW · Post by **DavidWW** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:David,
You have made a sounding board out of a distortion of what I wrote. You skipped round all the points I was making, however badly in my little ramble and I did not refer to “a pure Scot” in the way you mentioned. There are however purely Scottish names, or if you prefer, names that are generically Scottish.
I don’t how the Low Countries got into the mix.

Thanks’ for the gen Pinkshoes. I don’t need a map though. Thanks’ again.
MM

Malcolm

Sorry to see that you have taken offence. That was not my intention.

I was simple commenting on the researcher's statement that you quoted "The researcher’s analysis suggests that all purely Scottish names are Celtic in Origin."

The Low Countries get into the mix via the extensive trade links over many centuries with people, and therefore names, moving in both directions.

David