Old Monkland Poorhouse record look-up please.

[jongle]

In the 1911 Census for Coatbridge, Old Monkland Poorhouse, my grandmother, Mary Wilkie Guthrie (nee Munro) with her children Gordon 5, Murdoch 3, Robert 2 and Mary under 1 month are recorded on page 6, entries 26-30 inclusive. I'm trying to determine, even approximately, when they entered and left the Poorhouse and where they came from and went to?

Mary's husband, Gordon Hislop Guthrie, who was alive at this date is not mentioned; was he is in the Poorhouse as well?

Mary Wilkie Guthrie (nee Munro) was born 6th. January 1886 at Station Buildings, Lenzie, Kirkintilloch, Dumbartonshire.
Gordon Hislop Guthrie was born 8th. December 1884 at Glenbank, Lenzie, Western District of Cadder.

Any help with this request will be appreciated as I live in North Wales and cannot easily visit the Mitchell Library.

[AndrewP]

Hi Jongle,



On looking at Mary's birth certificate, there are some clues to be found.

1. Mary's birth was 01-April-1911. The cansus was taken on the night of 02-April to 03-April.
2. The place of birth is given as the poorhouse. The mother's residence is given as another address in Coatbridge.
3. The other two births on the same page as Mary were also born in the poorhouse, but with residential addresses elsewhere in Coatbridge.

This may give more questions than answers. As the child was only a day or two old, the mother may have been in the hospital of the poorhouse rather than the residential part of the poorhouse. Could they have been temporarily in the poorhouse during the maternity period?

What do the birth certificates of the other children say?

The parents don't appear to be estranged. Gordon is the informant of Mary's death registration, and describes himself as married to Mary. He subsequently re-married and survived most of 20 years beyond Mary's death.

Food for thought,

AndrewP

[jongle]

Hello AndrewP,

Many thanks for your welcome and for taking an interest.

I accept your point about them possibly in the hospital of the poorhouse because of the mother's address on her daughter's birth record. IIRC the poorhouse was on the corner of two streets, so is it reasonable that this explains that address?

The parents were married in Montreal, Canada in 1906. Gordon and Murdoch were also born there in 1905 and 1907 respectively. The Census record has Gordon born in Tollcross, Lanark but there is no record of this on SP but there is a record of his birth in the Droin Collection on Ancestry for Canada. I cannot find a record for Robert's birth on SP or the Droin. After the birth of Mary, the daughter, there were eight more children all born in Coatbridge; so the parents were definitely not estranged.

I can place the parents with Gordon, the son, and Murdoch in Canada in 1907 but am at a loss as to what happened until mother and children are in Old Monkland Poorhouse in Coatbridge.

Not just food for thought; more of a banquet.

jongle.

[AndrewP]

Hi jongle,

The second page of the header pages of the Old Monkland Poorhouse, gives its address as Hospital Street. That is not the street for any of the mothers' residences on that birth certificate page. Kirk Street that is given as the mother's address for Mary (and a different number in Kirk Street for another of the births on that page) looks to be about 1½ miles from Hospital Street, from a look at Google Maps.

Unfortunately the website about poorhouses in Scotland seems to be offline just now. Information about Old Monkland Poorhouse should be at http://www.workhouses.org.uk/OldMonkland/ . Hopefully they will be back online soon.

A picture of the poorhouse can be seen at the foot of the page at http://www.monklands.co.uk/whifflet/index.htm .

All the best,

AndrewP

[nelmit]

Gordon, a clerk is lodging at a Salvation Army House in 1911 at Manchester. He obviously doesn't know that he has a new wee daughter as he lists himself as having been married for 6 years with 3 children.

I'll put the names in my wee book and have a look next time I'm at The Mitchell - but it will be a while.

Regards,
Annette

[jongle]

Hello AndrewP and Annette,

Many, many thanks to you both for your valued input.

To you Andrew: I fully agree that Kirk Street is far enough away from the poorhouse for me to accept that the reason they were there was for the birth of Mary, the daughter. I did as you suggested and used Google Maps and reached the same conclusion as yourself so, again, I thank you.


To you Annette: The revelation that Gordon, the father, was in Manchester left me totally amazed. Now I just need to discover what on earth he was doing there. On reading your post I went straight to the 1911 Census website and viewed the original document. I definitely agree with you that it is him but how can you tell it's a Salvation Army House? I've searched the original but could not find any indication of the establishment, only the district it's in. Now I'm intrigued, so please tell me how you did it; as long as it's not a state secret.

Again; many, many thanks and my regards to you both.
John.

[nelmit]

Hi John,

I viewed the page before at Ancestry and it was the header page showing the details of the establishment - Salvation Army Elevator Home. Must have a google.

Regards,
Annette

[nelmit]

Hello John,

I couldn't find any in the poorhouse index for Mary but there is one made by Gordon in 1909. The reference is D HEW 16/13/169 page 25233. They were closing so I couldn't ask for the record to be produced.

You can either email The Mitchell with this info and they will send photocopies to you or you can wait till I go again (could be a while) and I will transcribe it. I forgot to ask how much it would be to copy but I am fairly sure if you have a reference they only charge for copying and postage. You can ask if you mail them at archives@glasgowlife.org.uk

Just let me know if you want to wait a while till I go again.

Regards,
Annette

[nelmit]

Well it's been a while right enough but I transcribed the poorhouse application for Gordon today. One of the saddest I've read in a while.

Gordon Guthrie applied from 8 Earlston Avenue, 2 up, Rent £19: 9/-, 2 apartment on 20th October 1909.

Born Jubilee Bank, Cadder, Lenzie.
Age 25 Married - Occupation-Clerk Religion- Prot (Meth)
Married at Montreal 15/6/1906 (the year was very hard to make out as it had been overwritten but I've put 1906 because that's what you say)

Parents - Thomas Guthrie, master gardner (dead) and Agnes George. She again married to John Hillis a ??? ur Beechman Rd, Lenzie.

Wife Mary Munro, 24 - born Station Buildings, Lenzie. Protestant, Housewife.
Parents - Murdoch Munro, milk carrier and Hillary ?? Wilkie both at 2 Burnbank Terrace, Lenzie.

Children - Gordon born 2/9/05 at Bogleshole Cotts, Tollcross ? (although there is no Gordon Guthrie birth there is a Gordon Munro in 1905)
Murdoch born 23/8/07 at Winer Court, Montreal, Cananda
Robert born 22/3/09 at Laviolette Place, Montreal, Cananda

Last employer Canadian Pacific Rly Montreal. Wages £3.10/-

At present address 33 Earlston Ave c/o Watson 21 days
Burnbank Terrace with wife's parents 2 months
Montreal, Canada 4years 9months

Applicant employed by Canadian Pacific Rly as a clerk states he had to come home owing to his health breaking down. There is no furniture in house. Is home 3 months and idle.

28/10/09 Application Refused.
Gordon Guthrie, wife and child Robert to poorhouse. Children Gordon and Murdoch to Stobhill.

11.12.11 Gordon Guthrie COS Army Home, Whitevale. Anaemia and abdominal pain admitted to Barnhill and left 18/12/11. Wife and family in Old Monkland Poorhouse.

20.12.11 Gordon Guthrie COS Army Home, Whitevale. Gastric Ulcer and sent to Coatbridge Poorhouse.
27.12.11 Sent Home

There was no reason given for the refusal of help to set up his house and it made me feel very sad for him that they admitted the family to the poorhouse rather than give them help to do so.

Regards,
Annette

[jongle]

Hello Annette,

Many, many thanks for your amazing information and for remembering my request.
There is so much which sheds light in so many different directions. You really are a star.

Can you answer these questions of detail?
How long a period for the rent of £19-9/-?
What is a COS Army Home?
What is Stobhill, where Gordon and Murdoch went?

Again, many thanks for remembering me.
Regards,
John.