Hi all,
Do you have any butchers/fleshers in your tree? If so, do you know about the great debate about tuberculosis in meat, and how it may have affected your butcher ancestor's livelihood?
After doing quite a bit of research about tuberculosis in meat, I have found that a lot of the blame for the spread of tuberculosis fell on butchers, rather than on the farmers who raised the cows, mainly because eradicating herds was seen as too expensive a measure! There is plenty about it on the net, just search tuberculosis+ meat history. It was rather fascinating.
I have Thomas Carson, a butcher from Irvine Ayr, my great great grandfather. Some time ago I searched the NAS and found reference to a Bill of Suspension for him. Here is a little of the information I received:
Transcription of Bill of Suspension against Thomas Carson, butcher, Irvine, 1892.
Order for the destruction or sale of unwholesome meat etc, Section 26.
Irvine, Feb. 15 1892
On the order of John Wyllie the sanitary inspector for the Royal Burgh of Irvine whose signature is accordingly hereto subjoined, and being satisfied that the carcass of a cow seized by him on Saturday the 13th day of February 1892 and to have been found in the possession of or on the premises occupied by Thomas Carson Flesher at Montgomery Street Irvine is unfit for human food, hereby, in virtue of Section 26 of the Public Health (Scotland) Act 1867, Ordain the said Sanitary Inspector to destroy the same or otherwise dispose of the same in such a manner and with such precautions as to prevent the same being exposed for human food or used for such food.
Judge: (unreadable signature)
Inspector: John Wyllie S.C., N.B. Green, M.R.C.V.S, Veterinary Inspector
Certificate by N.B. Green
13 July 1892 (probable date of presentation to court)
Irvine 17 Feb, 1892
I hereby certify that I examined a carcass on Saturday the 13th, found the property of Mt Thomas Carson, Butcher, Halfway, Irvine.
I found said animal had been suffering from Tuberculosis and in my opinion unfit for human food.
N.B. Green, Veterinary Inspector.
* * *
The documents go on to ask for Mr Carson to be heavily fined for his having the meat in his possession, and also to imprison him!
The court documents begin in 1892 and continue until 1911, but I only have those for 1892, as the rest would have cost me a LOT of money. One day I may get to the NAS and have a look at the two hundred page document that is still there. I would like to find out whether he won in the end, as during this whole time period, the authorities were still trying to determine if bovine tuberculosis could be spread to humans in the first place!
I found it necessary to research this topic deeply because I actually think my gg father was set up! The documents I have include a statement from my gg grandfather who maintains he received delivery of the diseased meat from Ayr a mere few minutes before Mr Wyllie entered his shop and confiscated it. Seems a bit of a coincidence to me! By 1907 my gg grandfather had left Irvine and his butcher's shop behind, but the court case dragged on...
And why would he have been set up? Well he was Irish...I know the Irish were not well-liked at that time, but not only that, he had done very well for himself; his own butcher's shop and a big house with at least one servant in Montgomery Street, the huge monument in Shewalton cemetery for his family grave. I may be off the mark, but I do think there was a little bit of malice in these precedings, and to get the real feel for it, you would have to read the 30 pages I have in my possession.
Anyway, I just thought I would share some of what was going on in the background of my gg grandfather's working life. It is amazing what you can find out!
Nina
Butchers.....
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ninatoo
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Butchers.....
Researching: Easton ( Renfrewshire, Dunbarton and Glasgow), Corr (Londonderry and Glasgow), Carson (Co. Down, Irvine, Ayrshire and Glasgow), Logan (Londonderry and Glasgow)
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AnneM
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Nina
That's fascinting. I have quite a few fleshers in my tree but much earlier and in Perth. I'm not sure if at the time they were around anyone had any idea how TB was spread.
As for your chap it sounds to me as if they set him up. After all just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you!!
Anne
That's fascinting. I have quite a few fleshers in my tree but much earlier and in Perth. I'm not sure if at the time they were around anyone had any idea how TB was spread.
As for your chap it sounds to me as if they set him up. After all just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you!!
Anne
Anne
Researching M(a)cKenzie, McCammond, McLachlan, Kerr, Assur, Renton, Redpath, Ferguson, Shedden, Also Oswald, Le/assels/Lascelles, Bonning just for starters
Researching M(a)cKenzie, McCammond, McLachlan, Kerr, Assur, Renton, Redpath, Ferguson, Shedden, Also Oswald, Le/assels/Lascelles, Bonning just for starters
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ninatoo
- Posts: 1222
- Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:42 am
- Location: Australia
Hehe Ann!
There is a human tuberculosis and a bovine variety. In this time period there was confusion as to whether the disease in animals was the same as that in humans. In 1882 a man named Koch determined that it was the same, later refuted by others. And it was later shown that although cross infection can occur, it is quite rare.
They eventually determined that the most danger of cross infection of tuberculosis and other bovine disease was through the milk, and eventually ordered all milk to be pasturised. They also eventually believed that cooking the meat posed no danger to humans.
Two other factors in his case were that the meat was ordered by Mr Wyllie himself...did he KNOW it would come diseased? We will never know. But he was so quick to enter the shop that my gg grandfather had only had time to unwrap one of the four canvass wrapped packages....he obviously had not had time to inspect it himself!
The other factor is when the sanitary board of Irvine first fined my gg grandfather, they charged him over and above the set fee of ten pounds maximum, which was then renounced in the July court appearance, as well as application for the Bill of Suspension:
"The Lords Commissioners of Justiciary Having considered this Bill and heard Counsel for the parties, Allow the excess of Two Pounds fifteen shillings to be deducted from the amount of expenses awarded by the Sheriff, and this being done Refuse the Bill, and Decree: Find the Respondent entitled to expenses which modify to seven guineas, for which and one guinea as the dues of extract Decree against the Complainer.
(Signed) Unreadable"
I am fortunate in a way that this happened to my GG grandfather as it has given me a huge insight into his work as well as the public health and judicial systems in those days. I would love to know what happened in the following years. I do know gg grandfather moved to Kilmarnock in 1907, and seemed to be dealing in live cattle and horses from about 1901, so he may have lost his butcher shop in the end, or chosen to leave it behind. I do not think it was a pleasant couple of decades for gg granfather's family! He lost several children to death in this time period. And coincidentally in the last known year of the court business, which was regarding Sequestrian Processes - seizing of property for unpaid fines (hmmm) in 1911, his mother, who was about 80 years of age and still living in Irvine, committed suicide by hanging (so the RCE said). All so sad.
An interesting little thing I noticed was this: another witness for the complainant was a doctor William Wilson, MD. He wrote a letter similar to the vet's above. He had signed all Carson death registrations before 1892. After this date he signed none for Thomas' immediate family, but DID sign his mother's.
All fascinating to me!
Nina
There is a human tuberculosis and a bovine variety. In this time period there was confusion as to whether the disease in animals was the same as that in humans. In 1882 a man named Koch determined that it was the same, later refuted by others. And it was later shown that although cross infection can occur, it is quite rare.
They eventually determined that the most danger of cross infection of tuberculosis and other bovine disease was through the milk, and eventually ordered all milk to be pasturised. They also eventually believed that cooking the meat posed no danger to humans.
Two other factors in his case were that the meat was ordered by Mr Wyllie himself...did he KNOW it would come diseased? We will never know. But he was so quick to enter the shop that my gg grandfather had only had time to unwrap one of the four canvass wrapped packages....he obviously had not had time to inspect it himself!
The other factor is when the sanitary board of Irvine first fined my gg grandfather, they charged him over and above the set fee of ten pounds maximum, which was then renounced in the July court appearance, as well as application for the Bill of Suspension:
"The Lords Commissioners of Justiciary Having considered this Bill and heard Counsel for the parties, Allow the excess of Two Pounds fifteen shillings to be deducted from the amount of expenses awarded by the Sheriff, and this being done Refuse the Bill, and Decree: Find the Respondent entitled to expenses which modify to seven guineas, for which and one guinea as the dues of extract Decree against the Complainer.
(Signed) Unreadable"
I am fortunate in a way that this happened to my GG grandfather as it has given me a huge insight into his work as well as the public health and judicial systems in those days. I would love to know what happened in the following years. I do know gg grandfather moved to Kilmarnock in 1907, and seemed to be dealing in live cattle and horses from about 1901, so he may have lost his butcher shop in the end, or chosen to leave it behind. I do not think it was a pleasant couple of decades for gg granfather's family! He lost several children to death in this time period. And coincidentally in the last known year of the court business, which was regarding Sequestrian Processes - seizing of property for unpaid fines (hmmm) in 1911, his mother, who was about 80 years of age and still living in Irvine, committed suicide by hanging (so the RCE said). All so sad.
An interesting little thing I noticed was this: another witness for the complainant was a doctor William Wilson, MD. He wrote a letter similar to the vet's above. He had signed all Carson death registrations before 1892. After this date he signed none for Thomas' immediate family, but DID sign his mother's.
All fascinating to me!
Nina
Researching: Easton ( Renfrewshire, Dunbarton and Glasgow), Corr (Londonderry and Glasgow), Carson (Co. Down, Irvine, Ayrshire and Glasgow), Logan (Londonderry and Glasgow)
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Russell
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- Location: Kilbarchan, Renfrewshire
Hi Nina
I have only one butcher in my - actually my son-in-law's side of the tree and by coincidence it was in Irvine too. He was there in the 1930's and 40's though.
Despite the requirement that all milk should be pasteurised you could still buy a pint of raw ie unpasteurised milk well into the 1950's. I used to deliver the stuff and had to remember which shape of bottle or colour of foil cap was which. Ordinary pasteurised milk had a silver top. Skimmed or semi-skimmed had a diagonal stripe across the top. Full cream Jersey had a gold top and full cream was in a half pint bottle but I can't remember which colour of cap it had.
I worked later at Hawkhead Asylum in Glasgow, and they were proud of the fact that their Home Farm was one of the first to have a fully accredited Tuberculin Tested herd.. At that time (1959) we still had open verandahs on some wards where patients with TB, whether active or quiescent slept outdoors summer and winter.
After the mass radiography campaign in 1953 everyone with a positive Mantoux test was offered protective jabs, but even into the 1960's the odd case of TB of Bone & Joint turned up. They were always last on e the theatre list and the whole theatre suite had to be wqashed down and fumigated thoroughly before the next days operations could be carried out.
Lets hope that apathy doesn't allow it to recur.
Russell
I have only one butcher in my - actually my son-in-law's side of the tree and by coincidence it was in Irvine too. He was there in the 1930's and 40's though.
Despite the requirement that all milk should be pasteurised you could still buy a pint of raw ie unpasteurised milk well into the 1950's. I used to deliver the stuff and had to remember which shape of bottle or colour of foil cap was which. Ordinary pasteurised milk had a silver top. Skimmed or semi-skimmed had a diagonal stripe across the top. Full cream Jersey had a gold top and full cream was in a half pint bottle but I can't remember which colour of cap it had.
I worked later at Hawkhead Asylum in Glasgow, and they were proud of the fact that their Home Farm was one of the first to have a fully accredited Tuberculin Tested herd.. At that time (1959) we still had open verandahs on some wards where patients with TB, whether active or quiescent slept outdoors summer and winter.
After the mass radiography campaign in 1953 everyone with a positive Mantoux test was offered protective jabs, but even into the 1960's the odd case of TB of Bone & Joint turned up. They were always last on e the theatre list and the whole theatre suite had to be wqashed down and fumigated thoroughly before the next days operations could be carried out.
Lets hope that apathy doesn't allow it to recur.
Russell
Working on: Oman, Brock, Miller/Millar, in Caithness.
Roan/Rowan, Hastings, Sharp, Lapraik in Ayr & Kirkcudbrightshire.
Johnston, Reside, Lyle all over the place !
McGilvray(spelt 26 different ways)
Watson, Morton, Anderson, Tawse, in Kilrenny
Roan/Rowan, Hastings, Sharp, Lapraik in Ayr & Kirkcudbrightshire.
Johnston, Reside, Lyle all over the place !
McGilvray(spelt 26 different ways)
Watson, Morton, Anderson, Tawse, in Kilrenny
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JustJean
- Posts: 2520
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:52 am
- Location: Maine USA
Hi everyone
This topic is very interesting. In my collection I have a photo of a butcher/grocer shop but have no certainty where is was located, who is in it (assume maybe Mr. Pollock
, or why my family had it as we have no connection to a butcher shop or a Pollock family ! I recall a couple years ago when David helped me narrow up possible families it could be by showing me how to utilize the 1881 census "neighbor search". I never did figure out for sure who it is but strongly suspect it might have been in Maybole. Anyhow.....here it is if anyone would like a peek at what it might have looked like to buy your meat hanging in a window in the late 1800's!
http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... p?pos=-676
Best wishes
Jean
This topic is very interesting. In my collection I have a photo of a butcher/grocer shop but have no certainty where is was located, who is in it (assume maybe Mr. Pollock
, or why my family had it as we have no connection to a butcher shop or a Pollock family ! I recall a couple years ago when David helped me narrow up possible families it could be by showing me how to utilize the 1881 census "neighbor search". I never did figure out for sure who it is but strongly suspect it might have been in Maybole. Anyhow.....here it is if anyone would like a peek at what it might have looked like to buy your meat hanging in a window in the late 1800's!http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... p?pos=-676
Best wishes
Jean
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Southpaw
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 8:58 pm
- Location: Montreal
Hi Jean,
Interesting to me as well since my Pollock ancestors were master butchers in Motherwell for at least two generations from mid 1800s to early 1900s -- maybe longer but I don't have any more recent records. These were my great grandfather Walter Pollock and his sons Gavin and George. If this rings any bells with anyone I would love to know.
Southpaw.
Interesting to me as well since my Pollock ancestors were master butchers in Motherwell for at least two generations from mid 1800s to early 1900s -- maybe longer but I don't have any more recent records. These were my great grandfather Walter Pollock and his sons Gavin and George. If this rings any bells with anyone I would love to know.
Southpaw.
Searching for McMurray, Pollock, McLean, Shearer, Jamieson, Plumpton.
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mallog
- Posts: 438
- Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:41 am
- Location: Ayrshire Coast
Nina that's been really interesting to read about. I think I would have had steam coming out my ears if it had been one of my ancestors. Sounds like the local mafia at work to me too. It reminds me of "The House with the Green Shutters".
I was told my father and his brother learned the butcher trade while in the army during WW1. Later they both became chefs but the brother died of TB in his early forties.
Mallog
I was told my father and his brother learned the butcher trade while in the army during WW1. Later they both became chefs but the brother died of TB in his early forties.
Mallog
Anderson, McAlpine, Blue - Argyll
Dunn Fife /ML
Coutts, McGregor - Perth/Govan
Glen, Crow, Imrie - Angus
Scott & Pick ML
Mason - Co Down
Dunn Fife /ML
Coutts, McGregor - Perth/Govan
Glen, Crow, Imrie - Angus
Scott & Pick ML
Mason - Co Down
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ninatoo
- Posts: 1222
- Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:42 am
- Location: Australia
Mallog,
Yes, I was miffed which is why I tried to find out so much about the knowledge about tuberculosis in that time, as well as researching the Irish in Scotland, and the social climate. Thomas Carson at least wasn't Catholic, but it seems he still wasn't made welcome. I wonder if John Wyllie had a relative in Irvine who was also a butcher who may have been in competition with Thomas...once again, mere speculation, but fun, nevertheless. If I had unlimited funds I would research the Wyllie's too, hehe.
Just Jean, you said "I recall a couple years ago when David helped me narrow up possible families it could be by showing me how to utilize the 1881 census "neighbor search" ". How do you do a neighbour search?
Nina
Yes, I was miffed which is why I tried to find out so much about the knowledge about tuberculosis in that time, as well as researching the Irish in Scotland, and the social climate. Thomas Carson at least wasn't Catholic, but it seems he still wasn't made welcome. I wonder if John Wyllie had a relative in Irvine who was also a butcher who may have been in competition with Thomas...once again, mere speculation, but fun, nevertheless. If I had unlimited funds I would research the Wyllie's too, hehe.
Just Jean, you said "I recall a couple years ago when David helped me narrow up possible families it could be by showing me how to utilize the 1881 census "neighbor search" ". How do you do a neighbour search?
Nina
Researching: Easton ( Renfrewshire, Dunbarton and Glasgow), Corr (Londonderry and Glasgow), Carson (Co. Down, Irvine, Ayrshire and Glasgow), Logan (Londonderry and Glasgow)
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JustJean
- Posts: 2520
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:52 am
- Location: Maine USA
Hi Nina
You can do a search called Neighbor - Advanced Query when you have the 1881 census disks. Can't do this one with the version on SP. It allows a search based on any number of key words.....for example...Pollock alone comes up with 1189 results in lowland Scotland....but Pollock butcher comes up with 5 results or Pollock flesher comes up with 9 in lowland Scotland. You can enter all sorts of search term combinations. A very handy tool indeed....and the precise selling factor that sent me running off to buy my very own set
Best wishes
Jean
You can do a search called Neighbor - Advanced Query when you have the 1881 census disks. Can't do this one with the version on SP. It allows a search based on any number of key words.....for example...Pollock alone comes up with 1189 results in lowland Scotland....but Pollock butcher comes up with 5 results or Pollock flesher comes up with 9 in lowland Scotland. You can enter all sorts of search term combinations. A very handy tool indeed....and the precise selling factor that sent me running off to buy my very own set
Best wishes
Jean
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MattE
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:32 pm
Re: Butchers.....
Hi Nina,
Really interesting re your post, my great great grandfather Thomas McEwen was a flesher at 93 Montgomery St in Irvine in 1901 until his death in 1911, previously at 79 Montgomery St in 1891 census. His sons Isaac and John carried on the business. I wonder if it was the same business?
Matt
Really interesting re your post, my great great grandfather Thomas McEwen was a flesher at 93 Montgomery St in Irvine in 1901 until his death in 1911, previously at 79 Montgomery St in 1891 census. His sons Isaac and John carried on the business. I wonder if it was the same business?
Matt