Castle Of Mey

Barnowl · Post by **Barnowl** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:15 pm

My Uncle Tom was born Birmingham 1895 and my Uncle Walter was born 1886 in Malvern,Worcs. They both(so I am told) worked at the Castle of Mey.According to my elderly aunt Tom was a Groom and Walter was the Butler.Walter married Jean(no surname) who she beleived was Housekeeper in charge of about 5 maids and they had to leave the Castle Of Mey as they had married and that was not allowed. I was also told that Uncle Tom was the first English leader of a Scottish Band and that he played pantomimes but cannot find out any other information as all other relatives have died who might have known. It seems strange that they travelled all that way to go into service .Their married lives wer in Bham and we have no relatives at all from Scotland-except perhaps Jean(see above) I would like to confirm these details.Where can I start please if anyone has any ideas.I am located in Staffordhire.I have the history of the Castle Of Mey printed out and a record that shows me that Walter was working in Bham as a Carter Office Boy at 15 on 1901 census., so he must have worked in service after then.

Post by **Jean Jeanie** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:25 pm

Hi Barnowl

A very warm welcome to Talkingscot.

A couple of questions for you.

What is the surname of your uncles?

Do you know if Walter and Jean were married in Scotland?

Best wishes
Jean

Barnowl · Post by **Barnowl** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:47 pm

Hi,
So sorry to miss most important detail-Williams were my uncle's names.I have no idea if they wre married in Scotland.

Post by **Jean Jeanie** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:58 pm

Just had a look on Scotlandspeople for a marriage between Walter Williams and Jane/Jane anybody. There are no hits. There are only 7 marriages in Scotland for a Walter Williams between 1902 and 1931 and none of them are in Caithness. One of them may be him

Sorry, can't be of much help to you

Jean

JustJean · Post by **JustJean** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:19 am

Hi all

I've just been trying to gather some more background info on this one. It seems that Walter and his little brohter could have been in the professions you give as their father was listed as a Groom on the 1891 census. Are these professions ones that Walter and Thomas held later in their lives too?

As for Castle Mey.....I've been trying to determine when the name was changed. It sounds like in 1952 when the Queen came to own it it was in a semi-derelict state but I'm not sure if it was being called Castle Mey then. We can see from the 1881 Scottish Census that at that time it was still being called Barrogill

Dwelling: Barrogill Castle
Census Place: Canisbay, Caithness, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203400 GRO Ref Volume 035 EnumDist 6 Page 13
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Peter KEITH U 42 M Watten, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Factor
William KEITH U 45 M Olrig, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Cousin
Occ: Merchant
Peter KEITH U 31 M Olrig, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Cousin
Occ: Solicitor
John Grant SMITH M 50 M Thurso, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Visitor
Occ: Surgeon
Jessie DUNNET U 27 F Dunnet, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Serv
Occ: Dom Serv
Ietty MURRAY U 21 F Olrig, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Visitor
Occ: Dom Serv
Lizie MURRAY U 17 F Olrig, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Serv
Occ: Dom Serv
Mary Ann MURRAY U 12 F Olrig, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Visitor
Occ: Dom Serv

The marriages for Walter Williams to anyone in Scotland returned only one to a Jessie (form of Jean) and I viewed it but that Walter was a carpenter which didn't seem to fit the circumstances....not least because the parents of this Walter did not match the parents of Walter on the English census records!

You didn't mention who Thomas married. I would think you should follow up on the deaths of these uncles and their spouses in England and hope to pick up a maiden name of their wives. Did they have any children? When were the children born and where? This could help narrow up a window of when they could have been in Scotland.

The fact that Thomas is almost a decade younger than Walter would lead you to think that Walter went first and Thomas followed. If they went together then Walter would have been older when he married and if they had children this could really narrow up a time frame for when they might have been out of England.

So nothing concrete to go on but perhaps some more thinking can be done on this one. Stories over the years have a way of getting added to. My own family were the world's worst at this

....so it's always safest to keep an open mind and consider all the angles.

Best wishes
Jean

Post by **AndrewP** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:05 am

JustJean wrote:As for Castle Mey.....I've been trying to determine when the name was changed. It sounds like in 1952 when the Queen came to own it it was in a semi-derelict state but I'm not sure if it was being called Castle Mey then. We can see from the 1881 Scottish Census that at that time it was still being called Barrogill

It looks like the Castle of Mey was the original title, then one of its owners changed it to Barogill Castle in 1789, and that the Queen Mother changed it back to the Castle of Mey in 1952.

http://www.castleofmey.org.uk/index.html
http://www.castleofmey.org.uk/castle-history.html

All the best,

AndrewP

Barnowl · Post by **Barnowl** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:55 pm

Jean Jeanie wrote:Just had a look on Scotlandspeople for a marriage between Walter Williams and Jane/Jane anybody. There are no hits. There are only 7 marriages in Scotland for a Walter Williams between 1902 and 1931 and none of them are in Caithness. One of them may be him

Sorry, can't be of much help to you :(

Jean

Hi Jean
It is Walter Williams and Jean-not Jane though there could be a mistake or nickname. My mother had a ahandmaid cotton nightdress that was made for Jean by the 5 upstairs maids as a wedding present(have just searched out the receipt from the museum for it probably in 1920s my mother thought when she donated it.It also says Walter was Head Butler at Loch-N-Holt-is this the same place I wonder?I always assumed it was as it is also referred to in other writings as Castle of Mey where Walter was Butler and Tom was Footman or Groom!.Incidently mom died 9 years ago so I am unable to confirm anything and my aunt doesn't remember much at all. Thanks for trying to help

Pat

Post by **Jean Jeanie** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:15 pm

Hi Pat

My mistake...........I meant to type Jean/Jane not Jane/Jane. These names are interchangeable in Scotland, so I tried both in my search. You can also add Jessie/Janet/Jeanie/Jeannie to this list!!!! Hence my name on this site as Jean Jeanie!!!

Best wishes
Jean

Barnowl · Post by **Barnowl** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:23 pm

JustJean wrote:Hi all

I've just been trying to gather some more background info on this one. It seems that Walter and his little brohter could have been in the professions you give as their father was listed as a Groom on the 1891 census. Are these professions ones that Walter and Thomas held later in their lives too?

As for Castle Mey.....I've been trying to determine when the name was changed. It sounds like in 1952 when the Queen came to own it it was in a semi-derelict state but I'm not sure if it was being called Castle Mey then. We can see from the 1881 Scottish Census that at that time it was still being called Barrogill

Dwelling: Barrogill Castle
Census Place: Canisbay, Caithness, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203400 GRO Ref Volume 035 EnumDist 6 Page 13
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Peter KEITH U 42 M Watten, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Factor
William KEITH U 45 M Olrig, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Cousin
Occ: Merchant
Peter KEITH U 31 M Olrig, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Cousin
Occ: Solicitor
John Grant SMITH M 50 M Thurso, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Visitor
Occ: Surgeon
Jessie DUNNET U 27 F Dunnet, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Serv
Occ: Dom Serv
Ietty MURRAY U 21 F Olrig, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Visitor
Occ: Dom Serv
Lizie MURRAY U 17 F Olrig, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Serv
Occ: Dom Serv
Mary Ann MURRAY U 12 F Olrig, Caithness, Scotland
Rel: Visitor
Occ: Dom Serv

The marriages for Walter Williams to anyone in Scotland returned only one to a Jessie (form of Jean) and I viewed it but that Walter was a carpenter which didn't seem to fit the circumstances....not least because the parents of this Walter did not match the parents of Walter on the English census records!

You didn't mention who Thomas married. I would think you should follow up on the deaths of these uncles and their spouses in England and hope to pick up a maiden name of their wives. Did they have any children? When were the children born and where? This could help narrow up a window of when they could have been in Scotland.

The fact that Thomas is almost a decade younger than Walter would lead you to think that Walter went first and Thomas followed. If they went together then Walter would have been older when he married and if they had children this could really narrow up a time frame for when they might have been out of England.

So nothing concrete to go on but perhaps some more thinking can be done on this one. Stories over the years have a way of getting added to. My own family were the world's worst at this :shock: ....so it's always safest to keep an open mind and consider all the angles.

Best wishes
Jean

Dear Jean
Thank you for all your efforts. Tom married Minnie-I have not found anything on that as yet , or on their son Donald. I would have thought that it would be difficult to pick up their deaths as they are likely to be early- 60s I guess when I was at school.I remember these two great uncles of mine. Jean had died-definitely after end of the war as my sister remembers going there in war years(my sister was 14 years older and has died so my sources are very limited.My brother doesn't remember-he is 10 years older!)Tom -they never mentioned and I never saw his wife so she must have died long before too.I remember parties when Tom played the bagpipes and did sword dances when I was,I suppose about 13. I can't remember anything about him dying.

Regarding Castle Of Mey-most documents mention Castle of Mey but one(as I said to Jean) mentions Loch-N-Holt when my mother donated a hand made nigtdres to a museum which was made by 5 upstairs maids under Jean at Loch -N-Holt. when she was Head Housemaid( according to my mother's memory at that time.) when Jean married Walter.She thought that was in the 1920s.If the 1881 census mentions Barrogil Castle that would have been too early for them to work there. At 15(1901) Walter was a Carter so it would be after that time.

Regarding MarkWilliams who was Walter & Thos father(amonst many children) yes he was a Groom,Ostler and Coachman-He was the last formally attired coachman in Bham for a private house.I have the history of the Williams back to 1795 but this particular part intriques me as i cannot confirm the family's recollections. Why-for instance do two children travel all the way to the top of Scotland from Malvern and/or Birmingham to work so far from home.How would that job come about?

Lots of questions!
Pat

Barnowl · Post by **Barnowl** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:25 pm

Jean Jeanie wrote:Hi Pat

My mistake...........I meant to type Jean/Jane not Jane/Jane. These names are interchangeable in Scotland, so I tried both in my search. You can also add Jessie/Janet/Jeanie/Jeannie to this list!!!! Hence my name on this site as Jean Jeanie!!!

Best wishes
Jean

Thanks for the tip!

Pat