In service

Mo-anne · Post by **Mo-anne** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:47 am

Is there anywhere i can find out about life in service? My ancestors' occupations include butler and footman.

Thanks

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:32 am

Hi Mo-anne
Not sure if you mean life in service generally, e.g
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butler
or
http://www.channel4.com/history/microsi ... rules.html

In Britain the butler was originally a middle ranking member of the staff of a grand household. In the 17th and 18th centuries the butler gradually became the usually senior male member of a household's staff (in the very grandest households there was sometimes a steward who ran the entire estate, rather than just the household, and who was senior to the butler into the 19th century). Butlers used to always be attired in a special uniform, distinct from the livery of junior servants, but today a butler is more likely to wear a business suit or business casual clothing and appear in uniform only on special occasions.

- or at a specific location in which case there may be some information in an archive, depending on the house(s) in which they were in service.

Best wishes
Lesley

Mo-anne · Post by **Mo-anne** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:16 pm

sorry - question was a bit vague!

My grandfather's family was in service and every life event I've found to date has been in a different place - they seem to have been very mobile! Which prompted all sorts of questions like - is there a hierarchy of posts, how did they find out about the next vacancy elsewhere in the country, did married staff live in - and a host of other questions.

But the Channel4 link is great to give me an idea of what they did

Post by **emanday** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:29 pm

Hi Mo-Anne,

Welcome to [talkingscot]

is there a hierarchy of posts

From what I've been able to find out there was probably more "class distinction" below stairs than there was amongst their employers! As a child I remember my grandmother talking about an underhousemaid, in the home she was employed in, having the insolence to draw the first cup of tea from the pot

As she said, the pot had already been used "upstairs" and had been topped up with hot water for the servants to use, but the butler and the cook were supposed to get first's!

According to the story, she was sent to bed with no supper as punishment

jennyblain · Post by **jennyblain** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:48 pm

Hi Mo-Anne,
I'm also very interested in finding out about life in service - we seem to have three generations (at least) who were associated with 'big houses'. Indeed I surfed by here today in order to ask the same question that you just did!

William Fisher was a 'gentleman's servant' at Hopetoun House, apparently leaving this employment around the time of his marriage in 1812. He may have returned there some years later.
Mary McCulloch (William's wife) was in service during the 1820s and 30s. She was a housekeeper at Castle Fraser, then at Carron Hall, then at Balloch castle though her position there isn't given. In 1841 she was living in Edinburgh as a servant, but we don't know to whom.
Her mother, Ann Simpson, seems to have been in service at Dunrobin, where she married a mason (William McCulloch) working on the castle.
And Mary and William's daughter Ann Fisher seems to have been in service in Edinburgh in 1838, and married another servant there, before she and her husband returned to the bit of property they had in Linlithgow Bridge - to run the family inn!

Ooh, yes, there was a hierarchy - Mary must have worked her way up it, if she was a housekeeper, and I'd love to know how that was done and how she moved from one place to another. So I'll add to Mo-Anne's plea - any information about life in service, please?

Jenny

Post by **emanday** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:01 pm

Hi Jenny,

I can only tell you what my grandmother told me. It was the responsibility of the "seniors" to train each their staff to the highest level of skill possible.

Apparently, it was something of a "feather in your cap" for one of your staff to move on to a higher position as it reflected favourably on your own skills.

Under those circumstances, it could be possible for a young housemaid to finally end up as the housekeeper in a large household, just as my grandmother did.

Post by **paddyscar** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:42 pm

Entering a Keyword search domestic service scotland biography in the Mitchell catalogue produces, among others:

Dewey Class Number 941.1
ISBN/Control Number 0114957851
Shelfmark 941.1
Subject Category SCOTLAND
Main Author/Editor Beaton, Elizabeth
Title Scotland's traditional houses, from cottage to tower-house
Publication Stationery Office, 1997
Subject Scotland - Domestic architecture - History

Dewey Class Number 640.460941
Control Number J000078961
ISBN 0750935596
Main Author/Editor Sambrook, Pamela
Title Keeping their place, domestic service in the country house 1700-1920, Pamela Sambrook
Publication Sutton Publishing Ltd., 2005

Dewey Class Number 640.460942 (Reference)
Control Number M000040446
ISBN 0853402876
Main Author/Editor Dawes, Frank V., Frank Victor, 1933-
Title Not in front of the servants, domestic service in England, 1850-1939
Publication London, Wayland, 1973

Dewey Class Number 640.46 (Reference)
Control Number M000137070
ISBN 0283986956
Main Author/Editor Hartcup, Adeline
Title Below stairs in the great country houses
Publication London, Sidgwick & Jackson, 1980

Dewey Class Number 941.0720924, Macdonald, John (Reference)
Control Number M000071944
ISBN 071260992x
Main Author/Editor Macdonald, John, 1741-1796
Title Memoirs of an eighteenth-century footman, introduction by Peter Quennell
Publication London, Century, 1985, c1790

A series of novels by Janet Sandison was published in the late 60's and early 70's which followed the life of a young girl sent into service in Scotland and it follows through her whole life, including the heirarchies, training, promotions and interactions among all the staff. They were quick reading, informative and upbeat.

Jean in the morning
Jean at noon; or, Summer’s treasure
Jean in the twilight; or, The mists of autumn.
Jean towards another day, or, Can spring be far away?.

Frances

Post by **Tracey** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:53 pm

When ever i watch the film Gosford Park (rather than the re runs of Upstairs Downtairs!) i often wonder which characters would relate most to my lot in service. My gt grandfathers sisters were Kitchen Maid and Ladies Maid, and didnt always enjoy their jobs or like their employers. There are snippets of gossip about some of the house guests at the places they worked at in letters they sent to each other

!

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:34 pm

Hi Tracey

When ever i watch the film Gosford Park

Great film, that! =D>

Best wishes
Lesley

Post by **Tracey** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:46 pm

Its one of those films i could (and do) watch over and over...............
Looking at Frances post, i have also just finished a novel about a young girl who came over from Ireland to Scotland in the 1880's with her mother (who she thought was her sister) and was put into a different kind of service in Edinburgh

and when that man that kept her died she took off for Glasgow and worked as a house maid.....................Even though only a novel i think it all adds to the intrigue of what could and possibly did happen.
The reason i bought the book was that the main character had the same name as my great grandmothers sister and she had also worked in Edinburgh

.