CAN you Find these KINGS? .....

[IanS]

Hi, Could this be your Henry King? Son of Henry, nephew to John? A look at the marriage cert. for Henry King and Mary Ann Mooney, Kilwinning in 1859 may prove/disprove that Henry Senior and John were siblings. However it does not resolve the Greens/Curran Issue.

Do all of John and Agnes childrens marriage certs state mothers name was Greens.?...... or Agnes death cert? Try a search for death of King and Green/s or Curran/s, over about aged 45 ish and after 1881. Compare addresses , informants, age etc. I would maybe leave the Agnes name out if you don't get a hit, because its interchangable. However she could have remarried......... Do you have her on the 1891 census?
Another point is that it was a nephew who reg. Johns death so may have got the name wrong, OR how about the writing on cert? Was it clear? Including the cert where you got the names Greens (and is there no margin for error that this is the correct cert?)

Sorry if I'm rambling, just trying to think of all possibilities.

Dwelling: Benhar Pit Rows
Census Place: Shotts, Lanark, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203618 GRO Ref Volume 626-B EnumDist 3 Page 8
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Henry KING M 50 M Tolcross, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Pit Labourer
Mary KING M 41 F Ireland
Rel: Wife
Henry KING U 21 M Kilwinning, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Iron Miner
Peter KING U 19 M Dalry, Ayr, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Iron Miner
James KING U 16 M New Kilpatrick, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Iron Miner
Thomas KING 14 M West Calder, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Elisabeth KING 10 F West Calder, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
John KING 8 M Shotts, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Mary KING 5 F Shotts, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Arthur KING 5 w M Shotts, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
James MOONEY 79 M Ireland
Rel: Father In Law
Occ: Formerly Coal Miner

[ali]

Hi Ian,
Well thanks for all info I will have to get my head around all of what you have sent and will look up the marriage tomorrow.

I do think Agnes is a Greens on all of the New named Children her name is MS is Greens.( that’s if they are the correct ones)
So far I have only the oldest son’s marriage Henry 1889 to Annie Pattison he married very late so they didn’t have any children. And yes Agnes did remarry she married Francis Robertson in 1882. He was her boarder in 1881 census.

She died in 1897 at Batton Bridge cottages Shotts, it states previous married 1st John King and married 2nd Francis Robertson. And to top it all it says her parents are William Mcinelly and Mary Mcinelly MS Carson. I just don’t know where those names came from I do believe her parents are John Greens & Agnes Carson. This info I have from her 2nd marriage to Francis.
And again witness on Agnes’s death being Elizabeth King ( daughter) and yes guess what, there isn’t a daughter named Elizabeth king or something?? it has another name but I cannot make it out.
I guess it could mean daughter in law but too much guessing. I have had aquick look to find a marriage of son John but there are an awful lot of kings.
I see that there is a Elisabeth on the census you have just sent me.
What year is this census?

And yes writing very clear stating Henry King Nephew on John’s Death.
So now I’m rambling hope all of this makes some sense.

Ali

[IanS]

Hi Ali, It was the 1881 census. Good luck.
Ian

[isobelc]

Hi Ali,

I had a few credits left so checked out the marriage certificate of Henry King and Mary Ann Mooney. The marriage took place in Kilwinning. Henry was 24 (doesn't quite tally with his age on the 1881 census, but his bride was only 18 so maybe he dropped a bit off his age), son of Henry King, Labourer , deceased and Elizabeth m/s Clark (Henry and Mary Ann called one of their daughters Elizabeth Clark King). One of the witnesses was a John King. As your John King was in Kilwinning in 1859 ( ref.birth of Agnes) and as both families end up very close to each other at Benhar Pit in 1881 I would think it is a strong possibility that the families are linked. Could Henry and John have been brothers (father's name and mother's maiden surname are the same for both, though the mother's christian name differs) and the nephew who reported the death be Henry's 21 year old son (1881 census)?

Regards,
Isobel (Edinburgh)

[DavidWW]

Hi Ali,

I had a few credits left so checked out the marriage certificate of Henry King and Mary Ann Mooney. The marriage took place in Kilwinning. Henry was 24 (doesn't quite tally with his age on the 1881 census, but his bride was only 18 so maybe he dropped a bit off his age ............snipped..........
Regards,
Isobel (Edinburgh)

Isobel

Such "massaging" of the age is far from uncommon, particularly when there was an age difference in the ages of the bride and groom of more than a couple of years.

Just recently I've come across a spate of such, - I guess that it's a statistical thing, - every other record in the last week or so has involved an age difference from the real age of anything up to 6 or 7 years, - but that still doesn't match my personal record a couple of years ago of 17 years being trimmed off an age, but then there was a 40 year difference in ages But I've also had runs of marriage register entries where the ages were spot on

Just y'day I had a groom aged 23 showing himself as 20, with the bride showing her age as 17 when she was really 15

Most often it's only one age which is massaged by more than 2 or 3 years, and most often a reduction, but far from uncommon to be an increase. Again, most often just the one age, but, again, far from uncommon to be both.

Especially for people born before 1855 remember that they wouldn't have a birth certificate. While they, or rather their parents may have had a baptismal certificate, who's to say what had happened to this

Even for people born in 1855 or later, as with the spelling of their surnames, they weren't that bothered back then about their exact age, - in other words, it should not be automatically assumed that all instances of marriage register "wrong" ages are the result of an attempt to deceive.

The analogy that I'd draw is that I'm sure that many researchers are familiar with families where consecutive census entries are immaculate in their accuracy; but, with other families, many of the ages vary a bit, or more than a bit, from census to census Again, I'd argue, most often not an attempt to deceive.

Remember the whole marriage register entry procedure - in the sense that, for the majority of register entries, all that the registrar did was to transcribe the information from the marriage schedule filled in by the couple and the minister, and signed by all three parties. In other words, no proof of age was required by the registrar.

While I'm sure that some ministers/priests required the groom and bride to prove their age, or he knew the ages already, exact or approximate if he didn't refer back to his parochial register, since he had baptised them, - or maybe when it was before his ministry, there was no statutory requirement on him to do so, and, in any case, just how many ministers were that bothered about being absolutely accurate ?!, especially if it appeared to be the case that the couple were roughly of the ages given

In terms of age, when I remarried in Kilwinning in 1993, all that I had to prove in terms of marital status, via the divorce details, was that I was free to marry As far as I'm aware it's always been so in Scotland, outwith situations where it was the case that an age greater than the current legal minimum had to be demonstrated .....

In general, as far as both statutory and census records are concerned, ages, most especially on death register entries when the informant is not a sibling or the spouse, need to be treated with a degree of caution.

That's not to say that other informants in the case of death register entries, family or instituional, didn't get it exactly correct, but the probability that this is the case decreases as the "distance" of the family relationship increases, or the informant is the governor of an institution, or a neighbour, or, - one of my favourite relationship descriptions, - "intimate friend", - which had a rather different meaning back then

Omigawd , - I feel another article coming on ..........

Last thought, - the only statutory record on which the age can be guaranteed to correct is the birth register entry

David

[ali]

Hi Isobel,
Wow you are so kind looking up that for me.
I have been out most of the day,just came back in, got my c card at the ready and you beat me to it. I did check my email but the posts haven't come through for some reason. So a good job I did my daily check on TS.

I have quickly at your looked at your find but sounds good, all possible. I did think that the places in shotts must be quite close. And yes may well be related. It says that John King was born old Monkland is Toll cross the same area?

Some of the Henry's children were born in West calder and John was also there around that time.


I will go on Sp and have a look, and get back to you, thanks so much.

Alison

[ali]

Hi Isobel,
Had a look on SP at marriage of Henry & Mary Ann and also found the family in the same area as John in 1871.
Alison