Deciphering help please .....

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alysone
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Canada

I second that!

Post by alysone » Tue May 22, 2007 6:04 pm

Hi Jack & pinkshoes,
Please don't back off! Just knowing that there is someone who can get their head around it all gives me hope. I had a first pass over your material this morning. I followed you for the most part but you lost me completely on the Purves. I will persevere until I integrate them. Following your method, step by step, is a grand learning.
[Isabella Melrose's parents' names are very different from the 1870 MC.]
Do you have a hunch about this?
Off to the vegetable garden, (where the various members stay where they belong!):P Thanks again, Rosalie
Last edited by alysone on Tue May 22, 2007 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jack
Posts: 1808
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:34 pm
Location: Paisley

Hunches & Joan Purves

Post by Jack » Tue May 22, 2007 10:34 pm

Hi Alysone (is it Rosalie?) and Pinkshoes,
alysone wrote:
[Isabella Melrose's parents' names are very different from the 1870 MC.]
Do you have a hunch about this?
Er, not sure what you mean by hunch? I'm only into wild guesses. :lol:
I'd just mentioned it in passing before someone else did...!
Compare Isabella's parent details on the 1870 MC to the 1912 DC; they are very different.
But it is the same Isabella Melrose - the MC is correct.
Her father John though was a carter in 1861.
In 1851 Isabella is as born Roxburghshire then,
in 1861, 1871 as born Berwickshire, and in 1881, 1891, 1901 it's Selkirkshire.
(doesn't alter anything; just thought you'd like to know...)
--
I suppose it was wee Joan PURVES that sort of started it all off....
I'd only meant to check the 1871 & 1881 censuses to see if Mary DARLING was still living.
(this to narrow down her death - i now know she died 1871)
But i wondered who this 18yr old gr-daur with Mary on the 1871 census was.
I then found Joan in 1881 as a daur-in-law with the FRAME family, but that relationship didn't seem right.
It was soon discovered that Robert FRAME had married an Isabella CROOKSTON.
Surely too much of a coincidence....
So i could only think that she was Mary DARLING's daur - but where was Isabella in 1841 & 1851?
I couldn't see an Isabella CROOKSTON that fitted what was known about Isabella FRAME.
The only person that seemed at all suitable was Isabella ORMISTON.
As i couldn't find an 1855+ DC for an Isabella Ormiston it was possible she had died 1851-1855.
Then later i discovered (3) Andrew SCOUGALL's 1870 MC had his parents as
(2) Andrew SCOUGALL & Isabella CROOKSTON, and neither were as deceased.
And that we knew that the (3) Andrew with Mary DARLING was her gr-son, and his parents were
Andrew SCOUGAL & Isabella ORMISTON.
That's why i thought Isabella ORMISTON & Isabella CROOKSTON were the same person....
So i went back and looked at Isabella & Joan through the censuses, then to their DCs.
The end result being that Isabella was as Mary Darling's daur, and that Joan was Isabella's daur.
Which, returning to the beginning, explained Joan PURVES as Mary's gr-daur.
--
But is Isabella ORMISTON the daur of James ORMISTON & Isabella KILGOUR?
I only doubt because she was born St. Cuthberts, Edinburgh, and not Cranston,
and that her age is more consistent to having been born around 1824, and not 1828.
Ages though can be very misleading, but not usually increased when married to someone younger!
And birthplaces too; one example is the above Isabella Melrose! :roll:
Jack

alysone
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Canada

I think I got it!?

Post by alysone » Wed May 23, 2007 3:27 am

Hi Jack,
Thanks for that explanation. Now if I understand you right, Isabella Ormiston/Crookston had children by 3 fathers? We have the 2 Scougalls, Andrew 1848(3) and Margaret, 1850. Then, 6 Frames. Sorry to seem so dense but from whence sprang Joan Purves? I guess being illegitimate means we won't ever find a father? From the dates you have so kindly spread out before us, she was born to Isabella in the interval post-little Purves who have begun to pop up with the Robert Frames as Joan's children? Duh! I really do feel like this is simpler than my brain is telling me it is? :? :? :?
The good news is that having gone slowly over all the information you have so clearly presented, I was able to add many new details to my file on this family. I am simply in awe of the masterly detective work displayed. I have learned a great deal.
Gratefully, alysone (who occasionally answers to Rosalie)

pinkshoes
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:28 pm
Location: Yorkshire

I am also in awe!

Post by pinkshoes » Thu May 24, 2007 12:27 am

Jack & Alysone
After a minor technical problem concerning one modem and several passwords :evil: I have at last gone through all Jack's information and entered it all in my programme - the fog has cleared :lol:

Jack your presentation was so clear and logical it was a joy to work through, and there's tons of information. Thank you so much.

Like you Alysone, I was stumped by Joan Purves but went with it anyway and it all became clear. Well, as clear as the Crookston muddle is likely to be !

Poor Joan - I think she may have had an unhappy life, but at least it was productive :lol: Looks like she ended her days in the Combination Poorhouse - Jack you have the place of death as Woodesburn? Terrace - I agree the writing is poor, but the address of Inveresk Comb Poorhouse was Wedderburn which I think is too much of a coincidence. The image is clearer once you know what it's supposed to be, if you see what I mean.

More questions arising from all this of course, but I'm delighted to have been the recipient of all the information and the beneficiary of your kindness Jack. What a star - thank you!

Alysone - come in out of the vegetable patch - there's work to be done! :wink:

Pinkshoes

Jack
Posts: 1808
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:34 pm
Location: Paisley

Isabella Ormiston/Crookston

Post by Jack » Thu May 24, 2007 12:28 am

Hi Alysone and Pinkshoes,
Yes Alysone, you've got it as i think happened.
As far as i can see it Isabella ORMISTON/CROOKSTON had the following children.
--
Andrew SCOUGALL, 1848, Borthwick, MLN
Margaret SCOUGAL, 1850, Borthwick, MLN

Joan PURVES, abt 1853, Cranston?, MLN (later censuses say Borthwick, Prestonpans)

Mary FRAME, 1856, Tranent, ELN
James FRAME, 1858, Tranent, ELN
Robert FRAME, 1859, Tranent, ELN
George C. FRAME, 1863, Prestonpans, ELN
Elizabeth H. FRAME, 1864, Prestonpans, ELN
Martha FRAME, 1867, Prestonpans, ELN
--
Could you help here Pinkshoes?
You mentioned Robert CROOKSTON being Mary DARLING's 2nd hubby.
Do you know she married his brother David because of you have children of them?
And if yes, when and where were they born?
Ta - Jack
--
ps, Joan PURVES herself had a wee squad of weans; probably 4 illegitimate children....
Isabella 1876, William 1879, Mary 1883, Joan 1886. All born Prestonpans.
--

alysone
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Canada

deja vu?

Post by alysone » Thu May 24, 2007 1:59 am

Hi both,
At least I feel I am on the right wavelength, now. Jack, you have definitely moved the rock further down the road. Not that it was the rock or the road we had in mind, right, pinkshoes? :D One thing about this obsession, moving in a straight line is not always how one progresses!?
I suppose it was wee Joan PURVES that sort of started it all off....
Oddly, if you remember, pinkshoes, this is how we got into the Mary Darling/Crookston morass in the first place? Remember, we couldn't figure out who wee Scougall was in that "1861 census 680 Ed 1 p 4 (Cranston)"? Talk about a detour! Now I am wondering if and how we could track down the wandering Purves of Dalkeith? I can't help but wonder if Joan wasn't given the Poorhouse option to stop the baby production? Who raised her 4 children & what was their fate?
In from the vegetable batch & quite pleased with all of us! alysone

pinkshoes
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:28 pm
Location: Yorkshire

Post by pinkshoes » Thu May 24, 2007 12:52 pm

Hi guys
I'm in from my vegetable patch too (first shift anyway). I agree Alysone that it's often worth getting off the motorway and taking the scenic route :lol:

Jack says:
Isabella ORMISTON looks to be the daur of Mary DARLING (either illegitimate, or from a previous marriage).
And that some time after 1851 she used her step-father's surname and became Isabella CROOKSTON?
I think - Alysone jump in if I'm wrong - the information we were given suggested Isabella was the result of a liaison between Mary Darling and David Crookston. No reason to doubt, but no evidence to support. Again, I wonder if the Poor Records might help - if Isabella's father (whoever he was) nipped off out of it, maybe she turned to the parish for financial help? If not the poor records, then maybe Kirk Session? I'm sure Jack will know the likely score here :lol:

Another wee puzzle as yet untouched is the niece Helen Kilgour mentioned in 1861 census, living with Andrew Scougall and Margaret Kilgour. I'm thinking again about James Ormiston/Isabella Kilgour (which may be a complete red herring). I shall see if I can scare up Helen Kilgour's entrance into the world.

But before that, the flower beds need me :wink:

Best wishes
Pinkshoes

alysone
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:35 am
Location: Canada

still stuck on Joan Purves

Post by alysone » Thu May 24, 2007 11:16 pm

Hi Jack & pinkshoes,
I think you are right about the David Crookston/Mary Darling liaison. We were told that it was a fact but have no definite proof. I am unaware of any registered births to prove it. My ancestor, Ann Crookston was one of the earlier births but I have found no birth record for her as I said before. On her marriage certificate her father is listed as William Crookston, coal miner, dec'd. & her mother as Mary Darling. (Heavens above [drowning] please don't send us any more possible Crookston fathers! )
On another bent, I have been SP-ing for a birth for Joan Purves. Let me know if either of your more experience eyes wish to go over the 1 page list I now have. Oddly, there is:
1 24/03/1844 PURVIS JANE JOHN PURVIS/JANE ORMISTON FR9847 F St Cuthbert's EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/002 0380 0184
Do you think that might be worth the 5 credits even though the date is off, as nothing else jumps out?

pinkshoes
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:28 pm
Location: Yorkshire

Post by pinkshoes » Fri May 25, 2007 1:08 am

Hi Guys - It gets worse by the minute! But that's par for this course :lol: I think the Purves/Ormiston couple will be something to do with us Alysone, but I suspect not the answer to Joan, so I wouldn't go pushing any buttons just yet. (I'm scared of what path we might have to go down next) :wink:

More mystery with Scougal/Kilgour I'm afraid. I had a look for Helen Kilgour's birth (niece in 1861 - trying to follow up whose child she was) Well I found her birth fine along with another several children born to the parents of Margaret Kilgour (looked at Margaret's DC while I was at it - parents are John Kilgour & Margaret Niven according to (I think) her son John. BUT there's no birth for Margaret who was supposed to have been born around 1825. John K & Margaret Niven were married in 1799, but first child doesn't appear till 5 years later, so maybe they didn't bother having the earlier ones baptised? But here's the odd thing ...

After looking up Andrew Scougal & Margaret Kilgour's marriage on IGI, I noticed Andrew the son was baptised on the same day - so I thought that was worthy of 5 credits. I searched on SP for Andrew S with parent Margaret Kilgour, but the OPR entry has parents Andrew S and Margaret Wilson - where did she come from? If a parent is specified in the search field, surely SP would come up with no matches? I'm going to be in trouble (again) for staying up till 1am (again) but I'll post the image to the gallery tomorrow. Thoughts on whether this is an error or just me being thick (again) would be welcome.

Ah what the heck, I'll not be able to get up tomorrow anyway, so here it is :

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1223

You'll see there's a note which says "see 1827" - I'd love to know what that says!


And yes Alysone that's my recollection of the state of play with David Crookston - there but not there! And I agree - don't bring William into it - or Tom or Dick or Harry. I don't want to know :lol:

Best wishes
Pinkshoes

Gallery URL added - AndrewP

AndrewP
Site Admin
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Location: Edinburgh

Post by AndrewP » Fri May 25, 2007 1:39 am

pinkshoes wrote:You'll see there's a note which says "see 1827" - I'd love to know what that says!
Hi Pinkshoes,

The remark regarding 1827 is Wilson see 1827. The 1827 entry is for Charles Wilson, born November 30th and baptized 28th December 1825. The note is pointing out that chronologically, Charles Wilson should have been entered in the register immediately after your Andrew Scougal, but is to be found near the end of the 1827 entries along with two of his brothers.

All the best,

AndrewP