Help with 1851 census .....

[Jack]

Hi Mark,
Some families never make sense...
Could you give some details on who married who & when, where etc.
Ta - Jack

[skaville]

Hi Jack,
Archibald Armstrong(c1845 Ireland) married Elizabeth Thomson(c1845 England) about 1864 in Glasgow. Thier children are Jane, Catherine, Hugh, Annie, Archibald, Margaret. Margaret marries Alexander Cameron around 1895. Archibald was a hatter, on one census(1871) he is a hatter journeyman. I am hoping he is on the other census's as well but changed his job to shoemaker(would this be possible?). I couldnt find a death cert for him(only 1 other who's father was George). Theres one in 1881 with a brother William. Im hoping this could be the Archibald we are looking for and perhaps he left for America after 1901.
Mark

[Jack]

Hi Mark,
It would seem a big jump for Archibald from hatter to shoemaker as both are skilled trades.
But i'll get back to you on this - got some things to check.

His brother William's daur Margaret married a Samuel HAWTHORN who was born in Bridgeton 1873.
But Samuel's father (also Samuel, whose parents were most likely born Ireland) was born in Girvan.
Perhaps just a coincidence on the surname, or maybe distant cousins in some way to Sarah HAWTHORN?
--
Jack

[Jack]

Hi Mark,

A short 1905 Poor Relief record says Archibald ARMSTRONG a shoemaker was the widower of
Mary McLACHLAN (b. Greenock), who died aged 36 in Paisley about 1887.
(they were married 31 Oct 1878 at Paisley, and had no children)
This Archibald was born in Co. Tyrone about 1848, and his parents were,
William ARMSTRONG, farmer & Sarah TRIMBLE.
His address for the last 17yrs was 91 New Rd.
And as you know this was where Archibald the shoemaker was in 1891 & 1901.

So Archibald ARMSTRONG the shoemaker is not Archibald the hatter.
But i can see why they could've been thought to be the same person without any more info on them.
This marriage though will hopefully confirm Archibald the hatter's parents.

ARCHIBALD ARMSTRONG
ELIZABETH THOMSON
Marriage: 20 JAN 1863, High Church, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland (from IGI).
--
Good news is that there's a 25th April 1881 application for
Elizabeth THOMSON...wife of Archibald ARMSTRONG, hatter.
It's about 4 pages long, but sorry i'm unable to type it all up till next week.
Meanwhile though some of the main points...

Archibald ARMSTRONG (hatter) b. Co. Derry about 1844, parents - Hugh ARMSTRONG, labourer & Jane RAE.
Elizabeth THOMSON (tailoress) b. London about 1844, parents - John THOMSON, tailor & Elizabeth BEALE.

Elizabeth's address in 1881 was 268 High St, and she was applying for an Education Grant for her children.
She says Archibald went to America in August 1879 as a coal trimmer...
But also says he went out as a fireman with an Anchor Line boat...
And says he sent three letters to her containing £2 - the last one on 2nd November 1879.

So in April 1881 Elizabeth applies saying she had been deserted for 1yr 8mos.
Some later case note applications say she is still deserted,
but when Elizabeth applies again on the 9th April 1900 for medical relief, she says she is a widow.
Stating that her hubby Archibald had died in a Brooklyn hospital 5 mos after he went out to America in 1879.

So when and where did Elizabeth get this info from if it was true?
Could well be the truth as Archibald did send 3 letters with money, but stopped abruptly.
Elizabeth applied in 1881 saying she was a married deserted wife...but was she?
Perhaps she was already a widow, but didn't know it at the time?
Or what.....
--
Does the lady you are in touch with have any more details on her own Archibald's life in America?
e.g. from any of the censuses? His occupation?
A quick look doesn't show a suitable Archie "the hatter" in the 1880 US census....
--
Jack

[skaville]

Hi Jack,You really should have been a detective. Thats awesome information. Its proved that Archie wasnt our one. Now we have to find out more about him in USA. Rumours of him becoming Mayor are probably untrue if he died not long after arriving. I will get Eileen to see if she wants to apply for a copy of Elizabeths relief application.
Cheers again, 1 day i will come to Scotland and search for myself!!!

[skaville]

Hi Jack.
My friend Eileen has made a link between the Armstrongs & Hawthorns. The George Hawthorn you have in Drygate is actually married to Catherine Armstrong, Archibalds daughter!!! Now to try and get further back with the Hawthorns and connect them to the Armstrongs!!
Just wondering about that 1851 with Hannah Hawthorn. You have something like Lynn? On ancestry it says Vornan. Bit of a difference eh?

[Jack]

My friend Eileen has made a link between the Armstrongs & Hawthorns.
The George Hawthorn you have in Drygate is actually married to Catherine Armstrong, Archibalds daughter!!!
Just wondering about that 1851 with Hannah Hawthorn.
You have something like Lynn? On ancestry it says Vornan. Bit of a difference eh?

Hi Mark,
Well done Eileen!
As my good cousin Irene remarks on our own family intrigues; "Wheels within wheels...."

You're right; quite a bit of a difference on the name....
I noticed that Ancestry had the surname for Matthew & Hannah as VANORN in 1851,
and wondered if this was just a very poor transcription of maybe HANTHORN or similar.
So i looked at the 1851 Glasgow census CD name index - it has it as LYNN.
Also checked SP - it too has the surname as LYNN.
And after having a look at the original census page on film i couldn't really disagree with them....
I only put the "?" after the name because i wasn't absolutely certain.
(might be interesting to see what FreeCen has when that particular census page comes online...)
--
Below is Elizabeth THOMSON's Poor Relief record.
I'm not sure when Elizabeth discovered that hubby Archibald was supposed to have died abt Jan 1880,
but here's what it says for Archibald on the MCs of 3 of his children.

1884 - Father Archibald NOT as deceased when Catherine married George HAWTHORN.
1888 - But he is as deceased when Jane married William SIDESERF.
1891 - And still as deceased when Annie married Peter ARMSTRONG.

So if these MCs are correct (no good reason at the moment to doubt they aren't),
then Elizabeth knew sometime around 1886 or 1887?

1886 - Plaw record says still deserted.
1888 - Jane's MC says father deceased.
1891 - census says Elizabeth is a widow.

May i ask? How did your friend Eileen discover that Archibald went to America?
And where did the info that Archibald possibly became a Mayor come from?
If he did become one, then he didn't die 5 months after arriving.
Has he been found on any US censuses from 1880 onwards?
Sorry for all the questions....
Just my curiosity in trying to establish if Archibald really did desert Elizabeth...and remained in America.
Or that, unknown to her, she was actually a widow when applying in 1881.
Jack
=========================================================
Glasgow Poor Relief Application. D-HEW. 10/3/63. Page 329. N° Edn.1286. 25 April 1881.
Elizabeth Thomson ARMSTRONG.
268 High St. Front, 3 up, right.
Born - London.
Inspector's visit - 1pm 26 April 1881.
Condition - Deserted for 1 yr 8 months.
Age 37. Tailoress in Hunter & Barrs. Earns 5/6 to 6/- per week.
Religion - R.C.
Dependants;
6.49.181 See 27466. [was written at left hand side near wee Ann's name - see my *note below]
Ann, 7 yrs, b. 147 High St. Was at St. Vincent School.
Archibald, 6 yrs, b. ditto. Never been at school.
Hugh, 4 yrs, b. 37 Shuttle St.
Margt. 2½ yrs, b. ditto.
Not dependant;
Jane, 17½ yrs, b. 14 Shuttle St. A tobacco spinner in Mr Bells. Earns 6/-
Catherine, 15½ yrs, b. 80 Bridgegate. A tobacco spinner in Mr Bells. Earns 5/-
Husband Archibald ARMSTRONG age 37 yrs born Derry, Ireland was a hat maker.
Left for America as a coal trimmer in August 1879, since that time the applicant has
received 3 letters from him containing £2 - last letter on 2nd November 1879.
Son of Hugh ARMSTRONG, a labourer & Jane RAE. Both dead.
Applicant's parents - John THOMSON, a tailor & Elizth. BEALE. Both dead.
Rent 12/-. 2 apt. Has an old woman looking after her children.
Education asked for Ann 7½ yrs & Archibald 6 yrs. to be sent to St Vincent RC School, Duke St.
First Application. Settlement Glasgow. Asst. Inspector, Thomas Morton.
Particulars of Settlement;
In 268 High St, Glasgow - 7 months.
Prior 37 Shuttle St, (Mr Kennedy), Glasgow - 4 yrs.
Prior 147 High St, Glasgow - 7 yrs.
27/4/81 - Education for Ann & Archibald to St. Vincent RC School. Have? granted?

L 49323. 10.30. 22/11/81.
Elizth. Thomson ARMSTRONG, 258 High St. Front, 1 up right, applies for clothing for her 2 children,
Ann 8½ yrs, at St. Vincent School. viz: frock, boots & stockings.
Archibald 7 yrs, ditto, viz: jacket, trousers, shoes? & stockings.
Rest of family - Hugh 5 yrs, not at school. Margt 3 yrs.
Husband went out with one of the Anchor Line boats as a fireman in August 1879, not seen since.
Family working;
Jane 18 yrs in Bells Tobacco Work. 6/6 per wk.
Catherine 16 yrs sews with her mother to Messrs Hunter & Barr at the trousers?
Wages last week (book seen) 9/6 for both.
Rent 13/4. 3 apts. 3 lodgers. One girl looks after the children. One pays 1/- other 9d = 1/9 per week.
Not well furnished & not very clean.
25/11/81 - House.

Education N° 3141, 2nd August 1886.
Elizabeth Thomson ARMSTRONG applies from 61 Duke St. 1 up left, for Education for
Margaret 7 yrs 9 months to St. Vincent RC School.
Still deserted by her husband. She is a tailoress with Hunter, Barr & Co. and earns 8/- to 9/- weekly.
Other members of family are,
Jane 22, single & 1 child, a hawker 4/- to 5/- in family.
Catherine 20, md. to George HAWTHORN, a carter. Resides 44 Duke St.
Ann 12½ at home, Archibald 9 at school. Fees paid by City Parish.
Rent 11/- per month. 2 apt. 1 lodger, 1/- weekly.
Residences;
In present house, Glasgow 2 yrs.
Prior 268 High St, from previous applications.
7/8/86. Edn. S. Vincent for Margt.

N° 9335. 12.35, 9/4/1900.
Widow Archibald ARMSTRONG, Elizabeth THOMSON, 113 Drygate. Low R & L. applies for outdoor relief.
Certd. wholly disabled by "Chronic Bronchitis". Dr. Couper.
Has been in poor health since attack of influenza 2 yrs ago - wrought none since 20th May last.
Last employed in Strachan, Crerar & Jones at 8/- or 9/- weekly.
States Dr. Grainger told her her lungs were affected last October: has not been out of house since.
An old woman Ann McGhee 70 lives with her, goes out with matches etc, gets lodgings free for going messages etc for applicant.
House of 1 apt. Clean, but cold. Not much sun gets in. A second visit door had to be kept open for smoke.
Son married a year ago: lived with her before that since August 1895 when he came home from Army.
She also had a little saved - now exhausted.
She is getting 2/6 from War Fund per week.
Mr. Alston , late governor of prison draws attention to case.
She states her husband died in a hospital in Brooklyn 5 months after he went out in 1879.
Family;
Jane 36, md. & 7 (1 boy working) to William SIDESERF, carter, Deanside Lane - irregularly employed through drink.
Catherine 34, md. & 4 to George HAWTHORN, carter, 250 High St, 2 up. Also irregularly employed through same cause.
Annie 26, md. & 3 to Peter ARMSTRONG, carter, Forsyth, Hunter St. Resides, 1 Dean St - assists.
Archibald 25, md. & 1. Wife & child at 6 Birrells Lane.
He a reservist in Scots Guards - was calenderer & gave 2/- to 2/6 per week.
Margaret 21, md. & 3 to Alexander CAMERON, works in Singers, resides 26 George St - assists.
Resided in present house since 28/3/99 per rent book.
Previous 22 Balmano Brae since 28/10/97 per rent book.
Previous 30 Duke St. since 28/9/91 per rent book.
} Glasgow 8 yrs 6 months.
Is said to be decent & hardworking when able.
She would be better in hospital and i offered her this pending Committee decision, but she will not hear of it.
Stated she never applied to Parish before.
12/4/1900 - Decision of Committee.
4/6/1900 - Medical Relief renewed.

8th August 1900. 11.40.
Widow Archibald ARMSTRONG, 113 Drygate, low R & L, applies per daughter Catherine for medical relief.
Cert. wholly disabled by "Chronic Bronchitis" Dr. Couper, and granted Medical Relief.
See Blue Slip for family. She has 2/6 per week & rent paid from War Fund.
16 August 1900 - Decision of Committee; Medical Relief.

23/1/01 - Granted order for medicine:
Mr Ferguson handed me a pencil note & asked me to grant order, was spoken to by Rev. Mr. Middleton.
Dr. Couper also telephoned about her.
D.G.B.
========= End of record.
(Elizabeth Armstrong ms Thomson (56) died 27 October 1901 at 113 Drygate - informant was A. Armstrong, daur)
*note: 6.49.181- since discovered that there may be 1874 applications for Jane (179), Catherine (180), & Ann (181).
27466 - this might be a 1910 application for Peter Armstrong - hubby of Ann(ie).
I'll look them out at one point.
======================

[skaville]

Hi Jack,
That makes for some interesting reading. Very sad for Elizabeth, with a husband deserting her 1 year after the last child was born and having alchoholics in the family!!
I believe one of her sons or son in laws went to America and found Archibald as a Mayor. It was supposed to be Philadelphia but we couldnt find one there so maybe it was a nearby town. Couldnt find him on the 1880 census, although there is one who is a farmer so i dont think thats him.