Census help

[crayspond]

Hi to all,

I am looking for some help on a census search.
As i have manage to track my husband's family (Purcell) to Kilkenny in Ireland, to justify a holiday there i should try and find where my Flannigans or/and Devines originated from.
What i have is
Thomas Flannigan married Bridget Devine 08/12/1882 at St John's chapel, Portugal St Glasgow District of Gorbals. He is 23 and a joiner she is 22 Domestic servant. Usual residence for both is 1 South Stirling St. His parents are James Flannigan - wood sawyer and Ann Flannigan m.s Kearnan. (she is deceased)
Hers are Martin Devine iron foundry labourer and Bridget Devine m.s Conway.
I have the 1881 census for the Flannigans in Rose St Govan but it only says Ireland as birthplace of all (only Thos,Ann and son James on this).
Could any one look on ancestry for me at 1871 and poss 1861 to see if it says any place in Ireland.
I did a search and think it must be one of these for 1871
1871 FLANAGHAN JAMES M 10 HUTCHESONTOWN GLASGOW/LANARK 644/10 076/10 008
2 1871 FLANAGHAN JAMES M 45 HUTCHESONTOWN GLASGOW/LANARK 644/10 076/10 008
3 1871 FLANNAGAN JAMES M 40 BRIDGETON GLASGOW/LANARK 644/03 119/03 001
4 1871 FLANNAGAN JAMES M 48 GOVAN AND GOVAN CHURCH GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 646/01 035/01 012

Thanks in advance if anyone can help,

Ailsa

[SarahND]

Hi Ailsa,
In the Hutchesontown one James is there with wife Ann, but no child Thomas. In fact, there is no child Thomas with a father James And there are many James Flannigans born in Ireland, but none of them give a more precise birthplace Sorry

There is a Thomas Flanagan, age 13 in 1871 with parents John and Ann living in Bridgeton. He has siblings John, William and David. Again though, the birth place is just Ireland. That John is a lamp-lighter, however, not a sawyer.

Have you found your family in any other census than 1881?

Regards,
Sarah

[SarahND]

Okay, here's a roundabout way that might shed some light on your ancestors' Irish origins:

Looking at the censuses for this family, I began to wonder who those Passmores were who kept dropping by. In 1881 a Mary Passmore, 26, born Ireland is a Lodger in the family and in 1901 Elizabeth Passmore, 64, born Ireland is a Visitor. The name is not that common, so I just searched for Passmores in the various censuses to see if any had a county in Ireland listed. There is one in 1901 in the Barnhill Poorhouse:
Francis Passmore, 43, Inmate, born Con Leone, Ireland, Cooper

Poorhouse records might just give you the exact details! (And help you figure out what the ancestry transcription above really meant...) And if these folks were staying with the Flannigans, chances are they came from the same area.

1891 at 35 Charlotte St, Blackfriars, Glasgow St Andrews, there is a Henry Passmore, 36, Lodger, born Ireland, Dougall, Light Porter

None in 1881 that give anything more than Ireland,
None in 1871 that give anything more than Ireland, BUT, there is a clue that our friends Elizabeth, Francis and Mary are all one family So Francis' poorhouse records just might be the clue you need. This is all assuming that they have some connection to the Flannigans...

1871
102 Main, Hutchesontown, Glasgow Gorbals, Lanarkshire
Joseph Passmore, 43, Head, born Ireland, Labourer
Eliza Passmore, 37, Wife, born Ireland
Harry Passmore, 20, Son, born Ireland, Labourer
Joseph Passmore, 18, Son, born Ireland, Labourer
Mary Passmore, 16, born Ireland
Francis Passmore, 14, born Ireland, Labourer
James Passmore, 10, born Ireland, Scholar
Patrick Passmore, 7, born Ireland, Scholar
Thomas Passmore, 5, born Glasgow, Scholar
Cormick Passmore, 3, born Glasgow

Good luck!
Sarah

[crayspond]

Hi Sarah,

You are right about the Passmores' I have both these census where they are mentioned.
Here's a thing - on the 1871 census for Passmore one of the children is called Cormick. On James Flannigan's death cert in 1898 his father is called Cormick Flannigan - occ Cartwright and mother is Margaret Flannigan m.s Lynch , maybe Elizabeth was James's sister?
Joette is going to the Mitchell over Easter and is kindly doing a search for me i have asked her if she would be so kind as to look up this Passmore as well.
I will let you know what the outcome is.

Thanks

Ailsa

[emamc]

Ailsa

I do not know when your families came over from Ireland, but Catholic parish records, for marriage normally recorded where the bride and groom came from, but this had all but died out by 1850/60. You could try the National Archives of Scotland as these have copies of all the Catholic parishes. Alternatively you could try and contact the parish. Good Luck.

Liz

[SarahND]

maybe Elizabeth was James's sister?

I think you've got it, Ailsa! Using the free search on SP I see that there is an Elizabeth Passmore, other surname Flannigan, born 1827, who died in 1910 in Dennistoun, Glasgow City-- got to be our Elizabeth!

Thanks to Joette for offering to look all this up =D> Let's hope the poorhouse wanted very detailed information on Francis' birthplace!

All the best,
Sarah

[crayspond]

Liz,
Thanks for the tip - i had never thought of looking at the catholic parish records.

Sarah,
Is the free search on the first page of SP? if so i didn't realise it gave so much info. Let's hope the poor house unravels something else !

Ailsa

[SarahND]

Is the free search on the first page of SP? if so i didn't realise it gave so much info.

Hi Ailsa,
What I meant was that I just kept narrowing down the SRI death search and hitting the search button again and again until I had more precise information. It's a way of seeing if there might be a record of interest without actually asking to see the results of the search. Very helpful if you are looking to help someone out but don't need to buy the cert yourself! For Elizabeth's death I first tried to see if there were any eli* pass* other surname flan* who died in Glasgow City after 1901. There was, so I expanded it to passmore and searched again-- still one hit, good. Then I started with a wide date range for her birth (fortunately, because she was not exactly truthful in the censuses ) and narrowed it down, clicking on search after each change until I had the exact date and was still getting one hit. Same with the year of death. Then narrowed down the district (you can search 5 at a time) and finally put in all of Flannigan and Elizabeth. Rather time-consuming, but free, as long as you don't want to actually see the cert. As I said, it's useful for those of us who'd like to help others out, but don't want to go bankrupt in the process
Regards,
Sarah

[crayspond]

Hi Sarah,

I did post a reply but it must have got lost in cyberspace Thanks for the explanation of how you narrowed down the Passmore - Flannigan connection. Very clever!
I found a Francis Passmore born 1857 in Tyrone (Con Leone?) on emeraldancestors site. This could fit in with him being 14 in 1871 in Glasgow. As my subscription has lapsed i have posted on the Ireland board to see if anyone can have a wee peek at the parents.


Ailsa