Tryin find John Scott from Campbeltown

[jen1985]

I'm looking for anyone who has info on a John Scott born around 1865. He had a son Malcolm James b1883 in Campbeltown in Scotland. I have Malcolm's marriage cert which confirms that John was his father and a joiner. In the 1891 census Malcolm is living with his grandmother Margaret Martin b1831. I think Malcolm was a mariner and thats why I cant find him on further census reports, but I'm having trouble with his father John. I think he married a Martin from the same town, a daughter of Margaret Martin, but have no further details. If anyone has any info or tips as to where to go with this it would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Jenny

[LesleyB]

Hi Jen
...and welcome to Talking Scot

He had a son Malcolm James b1883 in Campbeltown

I'm having trouble with his father John. I think he married a Martin from the same town, a daughter of Margaret Martin, but have no further details.

Malcolms birth entry should name both parents, including the mother's maiden name.

Best wishes
Lesley

[SarahND]

Hi Jenny,
Welcome to Talking Scot!
Who is Malcolm's mother, according to the marriage cert? Since Malcolm is called "grandson" in the 1891 census, she must, as you said, be Margaret's daughter. Is there any reason why you think that the wife of John Scott in 1891 might not be the mother of Malcolm?

1891
92 Burnside St, Glasgow St George, Milton, Lanarkshire
John Scott, 29, Head, born Campbeltown, Argyleshire, House Joiner
Margaret Scott, 26, Wife, born Campbeltown, Argyleshire
Maggie Scott, 3, Daur, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Jeannie Scott, 1, Daur, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire

All the best,
Sarah

[SarahND]

Hi again,
Going backwards to 1881 it's not obvious that John's wife Margaret is the daughter of Margaret, since there is no corresponding person in the household:

1881
Low Askomill Road, Campbeltown, Argyll
Neil Martin, 45, Head, born Renfrewshire, Paisley, Gardener
Margret Martin, 49, Wife, born Argyll, Campbeltown, Gardener Wife
Barbra Martin, 13, Daughter, born Argyll, Campbeltown, At Home
Helen Martin, 11, Daughter, born Argyll, Campbeltown, Scholar

However, if you go back ten more years, there she is

1871
Rose Mount Rockbank, Campbeltown, Argyll
Margret Martin, 41, Head, born Campbeltown, Argyle, Wife
Malcolm Martin, 10, Son, born Campbeltown, Argyle, Scholar
Margret Martin, 6, Daughter, born Campbeltown, Argyle, Scholar
Barbra Martin, 3, Daughter, born Campbeltown, Argyle
Helen Martin, 1, Daughter, born Campbeltown, Argyle

Was Margaret Martin supposed to be Malcolm's mother on his marriage cert?

All the best,
Sarah

[jen1985]

Thank you all for your suggestions and help. I've been doing a bit more digging and have found Malcolm's birth (under Martin), but the father is recorded as Peter, not John. His mother is noted as Maggie Martin. Im so confused! Did people use middle names or change their names on these documents? I wasn't particularly doubting the fact that that John's wife wasn't Malcolm's mother, it's just that I can't find any census records with them all together. And if the 1891 census which you found is John and Margaret, I'm not sure where Malcolm would be. I know Malcolm moved to South Shields later in life and married, but I dont think his parents followed. On his marriage cert, its only the fathers name, John which was recorded. I've also searched both Scotland and England (just in case) for a marriage for John (or Peter now) and have had no success! I'm truly stumped! Please help!!!

[SarahND]

Hi Jenny,
The only Peter Scott I can find in the neighbourhood is this one, a bit young for Malcolm's father, but possible:

1871
Bolgam Street, Campbeltown, Argyll
Barbara Clark, 25, head, born Kilkensie, Argyll (age must be off!)
Peter Clark, 53, Son, born Campbeltown, Argyll, Baker
Janet Clark, 38, Daughter, born Campbeltown, Argyll, Grocer
Peter Scott, 4, Grandson, born Campbeltown, Argyll

By 14 he is in a reformatory in Paisley

1881
Kibble Reformatory, Paisley Middle Church, Renfrewshire
Peter Scott, 14, Inmate, born Campbelton, Argyleshire

I can't find him after that... it is just possible that he went back to Campbeltown and got Maggie Martin pregnant, then went off somewhere. It would be interesting to see if he was somehow related to John. In the 1871 census he has the look of another illegitimate child... but it would need his birth certificate to be sure.

On the birth cert for Malcolm, was Peter listed right away as the father, or was there an RCE stamp to the left leading to the paternity information?
Was there an occupation given for Peter?

Regards,
Sarah

[jen1985]

Sorry I'm gettin a bit confused here! n the cert for Malcolm, the father is listed as Robert, not Peter! Sorry! But next to the name there is a RCE paternity stamp and it states that Malcolm is illegitimate. Do you know what the stamp means? Thanks, Jenny

[SarahND]

But next to the name there is a RCE paternity stamp and it states that Malcolm is illegitimate. Do you know what the stamp means?

When you downloaded the certificate from Scotland's People, there should have been a red button that appeared at the top of the page that says "View RCE (2 credits)". If you click on it, you will be able to see the RCE and read what it says. RCE is "Register of Corrected Entries" meaning that something about the certificate was corrected at a later date. On illegitimate births it usually supplies the name of the father. However, if the father's name is already on the certificate, the RCE may correct that information. So, by all means download the RCE-- it may just give yet ANOTHER name for the father!

Regards,
Sarah

[jen1985]

I see what you mean, have looked at the RCE and it just confirms that Malcolm is illegitimate and has taken Roberts Scott's name. At least I know now, although I'm a bit disappointed as wanted to trace that line back a bit further, not sure if its as worthwhile now!and its sooo difficult! Thank you so much for all your help. Very much appreciated. Will be back if I have anymore queries for you!haha!
Thanks again.
Jenny

[SarahND]

Hi again,
But Robert is definitely stated to be the father? Of course it's worthwhile!! Just requires a bit more fun this way There is no indication anywhere of Robert's occupation?

Okay, now here's a possible Robert for you, as long as he doesn't have to be a joiner...

1871
Back Street, Cambeltown, Argyllshire
Mary Scott, 36, Mother, born Campbeltown, Argyllshire, Grocer
Robert Scott, 9, born Campbeltown, Argyllshire, scholar
William Scott, 6, born Campbeltown, Argyllshire, Scholar


1881
16 Blackie St, Glasgow Anderston, Lanarkshire
Ann McCalum, 50, Head, born Ardchattan, Argyleshire
John McCallum, 22, Son, born Inneshaid, Argyleshire, Mason
Martin McCallum, 20, Son, born Innesgaid, Argyleshire, Rivetter
Robert H Scott, 19, Lodger, born Campbeltown, Argyleshire, Painter
Donald McRae, 28, Lodger, born Stornoway, Rosshire, Joiner

1891
Kirk St, Campbeltown, Argyll
Robert Scott, 28, Head, born Campbeltown, Argyllshire, Painter
Catherine Scott, 24, Wife, born Campbeltown, Argyllshire
Janet C Scott, 4, Daur, born Campbeltown, Argyllshire
Donald Scott, 1, Son, born Campbeltown, Argyllshire

Now his wife and children are alone, so he has probably died:

1901
24 Burnside St Burnside Pl
Catherine Scott, 34, Head, born Campbeltown, Argyllshire, Confectioner (small)
Janet C Scott, 14, Daur, born Campbeltown, Argyllshire, Scholar
Donald Scott, 11, Son, born Campbeltown, Argyllshire, Scholar
Robert Scott, 9, Son, born Campbeltown, Argyllshire, Scholar

I would really feel more comfortable about this guy if there were a profession listed on Malcolm's birth cert. Since Malcolm died in England (I think you said?) his parents' names won't be on his death cert. I would tend to believe the birth cert more than the marriage cert, since the birth would have been reported by people who knew the situation. In the marriage cert he seems to have given his mother's husband's name. Perhaps that's who he was told his father was.
Regards,
Sarah