1841 and 1851 census - missing mother and son?

[steiner]

Can't find Ann Murray ms McGraw and her son John born Lanarkshire about 1830 in either the 1841 or 1851 census. Got John in 1861 and birth place is Lanarkshire.

Ann died 1855 aged 70 on the death certificate it says she was resident in Eastwood/ Mearns Renfrewshire for 27 years and parents names are given - although search for their marriage has proved unsuccessful so far.

Am I missing something as searches in 41 and 51 havent turned them up.

help needed.

[JustJean]

The DC does indeed tell you she was a resident of Mearns for 27 years. Since her son was the informant I'd take that as pretty close to accurate. Since 27 is a much larger number than 4 (years since last census) I'd very much look for her to be in Mearns in 1851 and even 1841. Note that the son has also registered her death under the surname of McGraw...not Murray even though she was married to Henry Murray at one time and even has a son John Murray. Not sure if you searched the census under the surname McGRAW but there is this 1851 entry that looks interesting:

Name: Ann McGraw
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland
Parish Number: 571
Civil Parish: Mearns
County: Renfrewshire
Address: Woman House
Occupation: Bleacher

I realize the age is way out from the 70 but her son might not have known just how old his mum was....I mean he didn't know where she was born so he might not have known when she was born either and just picked a nice old sounding age to die at!! Either that or she was picking a nice younger sounding age to be in 1851!

A quick look in 1841 turns up this one which I'm only going by location, place of birth, and surname of Murray or McGraw and variables. This one fits the best.....any chance it could be her?

Name: Ann Murry
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1803
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Eaglesham
County: Renfrewshire
Address: Polnoon Street
Parish Number: 561
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Murry 38
Catherin McCormick 16
Patrick McGlade 20

I'll have a look for John now...was hoping to find them together!

Best wishes
Jean

[LesleyB]

Hi Steiner
Can you tell us where you have been looking please: Ancestry, SP, or Freecen? Or have you tried them all?

Got John in 1861 and birth place is Lanarkshire.

Without his mother?

There are a few possible Johns on Freecen for 1841, none with their mother, but as you know, as relationships and placeof birth are not given in the 1841 it is more difficult to tell.

Best wishes
Lesley

[steiner]

hi all

I've been looking on SP and freeCEN. I dont hace a sub for Ancestry.

[steiner]

jean and lesley

I do know that John died in 1886 and on his death certifictae Ann is mentioned again and Henry is described as a provision merchant yet on the 1855 death certificate he is given as horse and cattle dealer.

Cannot find a marriage for Ann and Henry - and as you say Ann's death is registered under McGraw which made me think John was illegitimate?

[JustJean]

How frustrating is it that no relationships are stated in 1841! Anyhow...there is of course one John Murray in the general area that could be yours but there is really no way of telling from just this record. I questioned his place of birth of Ireland but then again it's not uncommon to see folks born Ireland and then after living in Scotland for 10 years or so switching to Scotland. In other words....we can't discount this fellow until we can prove otherwise he can't be your John!

Name: John Murray
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland

Civil Parish: Eastwood
County: Renfrewshire
Address: King St
Parish Number: 562
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Ingoldsby 25
Margret Ingoldsby 20
Thomas Ingoldsby 1
Margt McQuire 60
Mary McQuire 40
John Murray 12
James Fulton 30
Mary Fulton 20

Just for the record what was your John's occuaption in 1861?

Best wishes
Jean

[steiner]

Thanks Jean.

I think the 1851 entry is a strong possibility. McGraw does seems to be an Irish surname.

John did marry in 1850 to a Johan or Joan Stirling - I suppose he could have been living with her parents - who from memory are William , a slater and a Rebecca - again folks from Renfrewshire

Do you think John could be illegitimate?

[JustJean]

Do I think John could be illegitimate? Hmmm....well yes there is a possibility but it's not an absolute! Just because his mum seemingly reverted to her maiden name does not make it a given. Technically she was born a McGraw and that is her name until death no matter who she was married to. It's not uncommon at all to find women even ones living in household with hubbie and a complete set of weans being enumerated by their maiden names.

The fact that Ann only had the one child (per her 1855 DC) makes illegitmacy a possiblity but again not a given. I wonder if John and Joan's choice of names for their children have turned up any interesting ones? Any that you can't find in Joan's family tree that could be pointers to ancestry in the Murray and McGraw families?

It's very possible that Ann and Henry were wed in Ireland and even possible that son John was born there and then they came to Scotland and since John was too young to remember he's basing all his knowledge on where he grew up.

Have you looked at all for possible siblings to Ann?...ie ones who have matching parents names on their DC's in Scotland?

Best wishes
Jean

[steiner]

Jean

I'm going to look for siblings.

As to the names there no pointers in th childrens names spotted - yet! I'll look again.
I take your point about the use of maiden names etc. I thin Ann's husband or partner Henry must have died pre-1841 as he doent seeem to turn up anywhere.
Ireland could be a start point

[JustJean]

Based on your further info then this is John in 1851 as indexed on Ancestry....

Name: John Murry
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relationship: Son-in-law
Spouse's name: Johann
Gender: Male
Where born: Govan, Renfrewshire
Parish Number: 571
Civil Parish: Mearns
Town: Newton
County: Renfrewshire
Address: Wilson's Land
Occupation: Starcher
ED: 6
Page: 6 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 17
Line: 5
Roll: CSSCT1851_122
Household Members: Name Age
William Stirling 40
Rebeca Stirling 40
Margret Stirling 18
William Stirling 16
John Stirling 12
Robert Stirling 8
Jane Stirling 6
Agnes Stirling 13
Rebecca Stirling 7 Mo
John Murry 22
Johann Murry 20

Best wishes
Jean