I have only just registered and this is my first posting, so I hope you will bear with me if I'm on the wrong board.
One of my ancestors used to live at 354 Castle Hill, St. Giles, Tolbooth, Edinburgh according to the 1891 Census. The lady was self employed as a Refreshment Room Keeper.
When I was back in Scotland some time ago I decided to make a visit to this address just to see if it was possible that she ran her little business from home. Disappointingly, the building no longer exists, and my calculations brought me to the conclusion that the tenement building must have been where the old Castle Hill School building now stands (refurbished again and used as a Whisky museum or the like today). I also searched the library at George VI Bridge for a photo of the old house, but only found a skylight photo which wasn't much use to me.
I'll probably never find out where this Refreshment Room (Pub/Café) was, but I would really like to know how Castle Hill School could be opened in 1889, according to the information given at the Camera Obscura, when the families were still living in the tenement buildings = 1901 Census.
To verify my calculations can anyone tell when the school WAS actually built? (Please don’t tell me where I can “go” to find this information as I live in Denmark!)
Danscot[/b]
Edinburgh 1891 - 1901
Moderator: Global Moderators
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Anne H
- Global Moderator
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- Location: Scotland
Hi Danscot
Welcome to TalkingScot!![[scotland-flag]](./images/smilies/scotland-happy.gif "[scotland-flag]")
This might help you... http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/11 ... ll+school/
added later... here's another one from googling...
http://hsewsf.sedsh.gov.uk/hslive/hsstart?P_HBNUM=28490
I haven't thoroughly looked at the site but if you contact them, maybe they could give you a bit more information.
Regards,
Anne H
Welcome to TalkingScot!
This might help you... http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/11 ... ll+school/
added later... here's another one from googling...
http://hsewsf.sedsh.gov.uk/hslive/hsstart?P_HBNUM=28490
I haven't thoroughly looked at the site but if you contact them, maybe they could give you a bit more information.
Regards,
Anne H
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paddyscar
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2418
- Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:56 pm
- Location: Ontario, Canada
Hi Danscot:
Let me add my welcome to Anne's.
I've found a photo 'Castle Hill Houses removed for building of Castle Hill School'
http://www.edinburgh-royalmile.com/hist ... otos5.html
My first inclination, with the overlap in dates, is to say the school was probably housed elsewhere in 1889 and then the new school building was set up on the site where your relative lived.
Hope this helps.
Frances
Let me add my welcome to Anne's.
I've found a photo 'Castle Hill Houses removed for building of Castle Hill School'
http://www.edinburgh-royalmile.com/hist ... otos5.html
My first inclination, with the overlap in dates, is to say the school was probably housed elsewhere in 1889 and then the new school building was set up on the site where your relative lived.
Hope this helps.
Frances
John Kelly (b 22 Sep 1897) eldest child of John Kelly & Christina Lipsett Kelly of Glasgow
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WilmaM
- Posts: 1920
- Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:46 am
- Location: Falkirk area
I've checked the NLS maps,
http://www.nls.uk/maps/townplans/list.html
The 1876-77 one shows tenement buildings beside the Assembly Hall and Library,
The 1893-84 one however shows the school on that same spot.
To veiw these maps , click just below the centre left of the middle red cross and then again 2nd top box on the right and zoom in.
There is a distinct possibility however that the street may have been renumbered at some stage and the place you seek is in fact on another part of the street.
Those particular maps don't give the buildings numbers, some bear a court or close name .
One way to discover where an address was at the time is to look at the 'header' pages of the census [free] on ScotlandsPeople, that way you find the area and route the census returns were taken.
http://www.nls.uk/maps/townplans/list.html
The 1876-77 one shows tenement buildings beside the Assembly Hall and Library,
The 1893-84 one however shows the school on that same spot.
To veiw these maps , click just below the centre left of the middle red cross and then again 2nd top box on the right and zoom in.
There is a distinct possibility however that the street may have been renumbered at some stage and the place you seek is in fact on another part of the street.
Those particular maps don't give the buildings numbers, some bear a court or close name .
One way to discover where an address was at the time is to look at the 'header' pages of the census [free] on ScotlandsPeople, that way you find the area and route the census returns were taken.
Wilma
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JustJean
- Posts: 2520
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:52 am
- Location: Maine USA
Well after poking around the census returns and any old thing I could find via Google I'm inclined to think that your Margaret McGarry did indeed reside at 354 Castle Hill in 1881 and probably in a portion of the building that was razed for the new school grounds. The photo that Frances found is excellent!!!
Now for the real question...how could she still live at 354 Castle Hill in 1891 if the building had been torn down and a school put in it's place? The only possible answer is.....what if she was living in the Janitor's house quarters in 1891? The census taker specifically indcates that on that portion of the 1891 census he has included only the south side of Castle hill...but he has also included the JANITOR'S HOUSE associated with Castle Hill School and he has also visited 16 Johnston Close. Well the Janitor's house was usually numbered 17 Johnston Close so was situated directly behind the School. Except on his census house numbers he does not have a number 17 Johnston's Close...only number 16. He does however have your Margaret at 354 Castle Hill. Another thing that makes me sort of feel she might not have been in the exact same lodgings as 10 years earlier--her quarters had 1 room with a window in 1881 and she had 2 rooms with a window in 1891. Something had changed!
As for 1901...perhaps I'm overlooking it but so far have not found anyone residing at 354 Castle Hill.
So that is the absolute best guess I can come up with at this point. I've been trying to nail down if the school had a janitor then who was it?...and why aren't they listed with an occupation of Janitor on the census. More questions I'm afraid.
Best wishes
Jean
Now for the real question...how could she still live at 354 Castle Hill in 1891 if the building had been torn down and a school put in it's place? The only possible answer is.....what if she was living in the Janitor's house quarters in 1891? The census taker specifically indcates that on that portion of the 1891 census he has included only the south side of Castle hill...but he has also included the JANITOR'S HOUSE associated with Castle Hill School and he has also visited 16 Johnston Close. Well the Janitor's house was usually numbered 17 Johnston Close so was situated directly behind the School. Except on his census house numbers he does not have a number 17 Johnston's Close...only number 16. He does however have your Margaret at 354 Castle Hill. Another thing that makes me sort of feel she might not have been in the exact same lodgings as 10 years earlier--her quarters had 1 room with a window in 1881 and she had 2 rooms with a window in 1891. Something had changed!
As for 1901...perhaps I'm overlooking it but so far have not found anyone residing at 354 Castle Hill.
So that is the absolute best guess I can come up with at this point. I've been trying to nail down if the school had a janitor then who was it?...and why aren't they listed with an occupation of Janitor on the census. More questions I'm afraid.
Best wishes
Jean
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nelmit
- Posts: 4002
- Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:49 pm
- Location: Scotland
Re: Edinburgh 1891 - 1901
Hello and welcome to TS.Danscot wrote:I have only just registered and this is my first posting, so I hope you will bear with me if I'm on the wrong board.
One of my ancestors used to live at 354 Castle Hill, St. Giles, Tolbooth, Edinburgh according to the 1891 Census. The lady was self employed as a Refreshment Room Keeper.
When I was back in Scotland some time ago I decided to make a visit to this address just to see if it was possible that she ran her little business from home. Disappointingly, the building no longer exists, and my calculations brought me to the conclusion that the tenement building must have been where the old Castle Hill School building now stands (refurbished again and used as a Whisky museum or the like today). I also searched the library at George VI Bridge for a photo of the old house, but only found a skylight photo which wasn't much use to me.
I'll probably never find out where this Refreshment Room (Pub/Café) was, but I would really like to know how Castle Hill School could be opened in 1889, according to the information given at the Camera Obscura, when the families were still living in the tenement buildings = 1901 Census.
To verify my calculations can anyone tell when the school WAS actually built? (Please don’t tell me where I can “go” to find this information as I live in Denmark!)
Danscot[/b]
Maybe you know this already but I recognised the name Jean mentioned and the fact that she kept a refreshment room at Edinburgh.
We have another member descended from this family -
http://talkingscot.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 17&start=0
Regards,
Annette
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Danscot
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:25 am
Hello again all you very helpful people. I now realize that I should just have asked YOU years back as it would have saved me a lot of headaches.
Thanks ever so much for all your help. I've had a quick look at all your recommended websites and I'm already amazed at all this new inform ation and old photos. Frances, I'm sure this is the same photo I found in the library. I'm going to have to spend some time going through the various sites to get a bigger picture of Edinburgh around 1881 >.
Jean: You are in fact correct about them not being there in 1901 - sorry my mistake - I meant of course 1881 and 1891. The 1881 census states the address as 354 Castle Hill, Tolbooth and the 1891 census states 354 Castle Hill, St. Giles, Tolbooth. Probably the same difference don't you think. I must admit that your theory sounds very plausible, but it didn't even occur to me that the person taking the census didn't know the difference between Castle Hill and Johnstons Close.
Annette; Sound very interesting - I'll check your link.
Once I've digested all this information I'll probably have even more questions so I hope you don't mind me coming back for some backup.
Danscot
Thanks ever so much for all your help. I've had a quick look at all your recommended websites and I'm already amazed at all this new inform ation and old photos. Frances, I'm sure this is the same photo I found in the library. I'm going to have to spend some time going through the various sites to get a bigger picture of Edinburgh around 1881 >.
Jean: You are in fact correct about them not being there in 1901 - sorry my mistake - I meant of course 1881 and 1891. The 1881 census states the address as 354 Castle Hill, Tolbooth and the 1891 census states 354 Castle Hill, St. Giles, Tolbooth. Probably the same difference don't you think. I must admit that your theory sounds very plausible, but it didn't even occur to me that the person taking the census didn't know the difference between Castle Hill and Johnstons Close.
Annette; Sound very interesting - I'll check your link.
Once I've digested all this information I'll probably have even more questions so I hope you don't mind me coming back for some backup.
Danscot
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paddyscar
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2418
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- Location: Ontario, Canada
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JustJean
- Posts: 2520
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:52 am
- Location: Maine USA
Very nice Annette.....what a memory on that girl ehh??!!
Another very wild further suggestion would be to have some research done in the Castle Hill School log books. Not sure what info they might contain (anything on the Janitor and/or house perhaps??) The National Archives website shows the Edinburgh City Archives has the log books 1888-1951...
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/ ... ?ID=O65003
Best wishes
Jean
Another very wild further suggestion would be to have some research done in the Castle Hill School log books. Not sure what info they might contain (anything on the Janitor and/or house perhaps??) The National Archives website shows the Edinburgh City Archives has the log books 1888-1951...
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/ ... ?ID=O65003
Best wishes
Jean
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Currie
- Posts: 3924
- Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:20 am
- Location: Australia
Hello All,
This Google book about the Edinburgh School Board gives the Castle Hill opening date as 3rd December, 1888. http://tinyurl.com/kwalul In Parliamentary Papers there’s mention of it ceasing functioning as a school in 1951 and being converted to a Training Centre for the Baking, Confectionary and Catering trades.
There’s an article in the Aberdeen Weekly Journal 12th September, 1887, about the death of a William Nelson who “was born 1816, in the Gordon House, Castle Hill, which has just been demolished to make way for a School Board school.”
More about it here and more photos if you click through the ten items. Note the larger image button. http://www.capitalcollections.org.uk/in ... lIjs=&pg=5
The Historic Scotland page Anne posted referred in the notes to “remove old buildings” and to a later, 1889, playground extension. It looks like a number of old buildings bit the dust to build the school and playground etc.
In the Caledonian Mercury (Edinburgh), 3rd April, 1863, there’s a report that a William Rose, 354 Castlehill, applied for a licence to operate a public house (Porter and Ale) at the same address. The Landlord or Factor of the premises was a George Rodger, 150 High Street.
There are earlier reports in the Caledonian Mercury on 20th June, 1861, that William Rose, of Castlehill was charged with being disorderly etc in his premises called the “Castlehill Club” and in 1862 being charged with selling spirits without a licence.
A search for 354 Castlehill in the Scotsman http://archive.scotsman.com/search.cfm brings up only a couple of 1869 results quite possibly for the same sort of thing as the name Rose appears to be there also. There’s no Edinburgh coverage in 19C British Library Newspapers after 1867 when the Scotsman bought its main competitor, the Caledonian Mercury, and trashed it.
It can be a bit risky relying on street numbers because they so often change but if the William Rose address of 1869? is much closer to 1881 than anything else we have maybe his earlier census info will provide a clue as to location.
Hope that helps,
Alan
This Google book about the Edinburgh School Board gives the Castle Hill opening date as 3rd December, 1888. http://tinyurl.com/kwalul In Parliamentary Papers there’s mention of it ceasing functioning as a school in 1951 and being converted to a Training Centre for the Baking, Confectionary and Catering trades.
There’s an article in the Aberdeen Weekly Journal 12th September, 1887, about the death of a William Nelson who “was born 1816, in the Gordon House, Castle Hill, which has just been demolished to make way for a School Board school.”
More about it here and more photos if you click through the ten items. Note the larger image button. http://www.capitalcollections.org.uk/in ... lIjs=&pg=5
The Historic Scotland page Anne posted referred in the notes to “remove old buildings” and to a later, 1889, playground extension. It looks like a number of old buildings bit the dust to build the school and playground etc.
In the Caledonian Mercury (Edinburgh), 3rd April, 1863, there’s a report that a William Rose, 354 Castlehill, applied for a licence to operate a public house (Porter and Ale) at the same address. The Landlord or Factor of the premises was a George Rodger, 150 High Street.
There are earlier reports in the Caledonian Mercury on 20th June, 1861, that William Rose, of Castlehill was charged with being disorderly etc in his premises called the “Castlehill Club” and in 1862 being charged with selling spirits without a licence.
A search for 354 Castlehill in the Scotsman http://archive.scotsman.com/search.cfm brings up only a couple of 1869 results quite possibly for the same sort of thing as the name Rose appears to be there also. There’s no Edinburgh coverage in 19C British Library Newspapers after 1867 when the Scotsman bought its main competitor, the Caledonian Mercury, and trashed it.
It can be a bit risky relying on street numbers because they so often change but if the William Rose address of 1869? is much closer to 1881 than anything else we have maybe his earlier census info will provide a clue as to location.
Hope that helps,
Alan