Hi Andrew,
Saw your posting on the missing Censuses. I show a few more on my
Quick Look Chart on the Scottish Research site at www.lafhc.org , hopefully my sources were accurate. Check it out and let me know.
Also on the 1901 Census, ED 2 of Renfrew #560 is missing.
There should be 6 more pages added to the site this week on Administration Districts. I'm working on Commissariot Records just now and hope to have a full detailed list of Records and Film numbers up in the next 2 to 3 weeks.
SAM GIBSON
L.A.F.H.C.
MISSING CENSUSES .....
Moderator: Global Moderators
-
sam gibson
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:56 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CALIFORNIA
-
AndrewP
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6189
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:36 am
- Location: Edinburgh
Hi Sam,
There is a number of Enumeration Districts / Registration Districts that as far as I understand were created in 1855. Pre-1855, these areas were part of a larger parish. Hence no OPR, 1841 or 1851 censuses for these 1855+ districts (civil parishes - not necessarily the same as church parishes from 1855).
As an example Kinloch Rannoch (RD/ED 367). I agree with the online LDS Family History catalog, there is no 1841 or 1851 census, or any OPR. I believe it was part of Fortingal parish (355) until 1855 - this can be gathered from looking at different ages of maps, and from the text of the 1845 Statistical Accounts of Scotland for Fortingal Parish.
Similar applies to Aberfeldy, Cumlodden and Lochranza. Maybe also Edgerston and Wanlockhead.
Then there are the parishes which split across county boundaries. An example is Cromdale and Inverallan. I think that parish was enumerated in Moray (numbered as 128b) and not as Inverness-shire (93).
Do you have access to the films that you could look at the parish descriptions at the start of each book, and the page titles?
I will contact you separately by e-mail to see if we can arrive at an agreed list if that is okay by you.
Who said this genealogy business was ever straight-forward? (never!)
All the best,
Andrew Paterson
There is a number of Enumeration Districts / Registration Districts that as far as I understand were created in 1855. Pre-1855, these areas were part of a larger parish. Hence no OPR, 1841 or 1851 censuses for these 1855+ districts (civil parishes - not necessarily the same as church parishes from 1855).
As an example Kinloch Rannoch (RD/ED 367). I agree with the online LDS Family History catalog, there is no 1841 or 1851 census, or any OPR. I believe it was part of Fortingal parish (355) until 1855 - this can be gathered from looking at different ages of maps, and from the text of the 1845 Statistical Accounts of Scotland for Fortingal Parish.
Similar applies to Aberfeldy, Cumlodden and Lochranza. Maybe also Edgerston and Wanlockhead.
Then there are the parishes which split across county boundaries. An example is Cromdale and Inverallan. I think that parish was enumerated in Moray (numbered as 128b) and not as Inverness-shire (93).
Do you have access to the films that you could look at the parish descriptions at the start of each book, and the page titles?
I will contact you separately by e-mail to see if we can arrive at an agreed list if that is okay by you.
Who said this genealogy business was ever straight-forward? (never!)
All the best,
Andrew Paterson
-
sam gibson
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:56 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CALIFORNIA
MISSING CENSUSES
Hi Andrew,
I just used the post 1855 OPR numbers as a guide to the beginerers. They were already familiar with that numbering system and we use the same numbering system for the 1841 and 1851 Census, we don't want to confuse these poor wee Americans too much. The LDS Catalogue also uses these numbers extensively on the Church Records.
I have the complete 1841[2nd Filming], 1851[2nd Filming], 1861, 1871 Census on Film, the complete 1881 Census on Fiche, along with about 30% of the 1881 on Film and about 50% of 1891 on Film. We have, either in house or on order, 33 of the 1901 Census Films. Someone donated our first Filmings of the 1841 and 1851 to another Family History Centre before I took over, they felt duplication was a redundancy. I have about 60 or 70 Films of the 1841 [1st Filming] that I managed to scrounge up and am looking for more. The 2nd Filming has always presumed to be the better of the two, but some people have said the quality on some 2nd's have been poorer. It's been a while since I looked at the begining pages of any of the early census, but if I remember correctly, only the first Filmings of the 1841 and 1851 Census had the Enumerators notes as to Geography of the District on the film. I seem to recall some details were left of the second Filming, but before I put my foot to deep in the muck, I'd better verify that .
SAM GIBSON
L.A.F.H.C.
I just used the post 1855 OPR numbers as a guide to the beginerers. They were already familiar with that numbering system and we use the same numbering system for the 1841 and 1851 Census, we don't want to confuse these poor wee Americans too much. The LDS Catalogue also uses these numbers extensively on the Church Records.
I have the complete 1841[2nd Filming], 1851[2nd Filming], 1861, 1871 Census on Film, the complete 1881 Census on Fiche, along with about 30% of the 1881 on Film and about 50% of 1891 on Film. We have, either in house or on order, 33 of the 1901 Census Films. Someone donated our first Filmings of the 1841 and 1851 to another Family History Centre before I took over, they felt duplication was a redundancy. I have about 60 or 70 Films of the 1841 [1st Filming] that I managed to scrounge up and am looking for more. The 2nd Filming has always presumed to be the better of the two, but some people have said the quality on some 2nd's have been poorer. It's been a while since I looked at the begining pages of any of the early census, but if I remember correctly, only the first Filmings of the 1841 and 1851 Census had the Enumerators notes as to Geography of the District on the film. I seem to recall some details were left of the second Filming, but before I put my foot to deep in the muck, I'd better verify that .
SAM GIBSON
L.A.F.H.C.
-
DavidWW
- Posts: 5057
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:47 pm
Any minute now we'll be starting on the original 1851 district reference numbers 
<horror> - anyone know if The Mitchell have found their lookup conversion table yet ?
Davie
Note: The same ref nos. were used in 1841, and 1861 thru 1901, but some bright spark decided to use a different numbering system in 1851. Some archives, e.g. NRH have renumbered the 1851 films to match all the others, but the last time I was in at the Mitchell they still hadn't and had mislaid the lookup conversion table ...........
<horror> - anyone know if The Mitchell have found their lookup conversion table yet ? Davie
Note: The same ref nos. were used in 1841, and 1861 thru 1901, but some bright spark decided to use a different numbering system in 1851. Some archives, e.g. NRH have renumbered the 1851 films to match all the others, but the last time I was in at the Mitchell they still hadn't and had mislaid the lookup conversion table ...........
-
sam gibson
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:56 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CALIFORNIA
MISSING CENSUSES
Good morning Andrew,
I went through my notes last night, I was actually working on Commissariot Records for the web site, when I found the following list of missing censuses. These were prepared by David Thomson, an ex-Dundonian now living in Australia. David was a frequent visitor to the Los Angeles Centre and Presenter for the British Isles F.H.S. Seminars and was one of my mentors when I was learning the ins and outs of Scottish Records.
Like myself, David used the Post 1855 O.P.R. numbering system to identify Parishes in the 1841 and 1852 Censuses. He just did as I did and followed the LDS Catalogue. It seems to be the simplest and most logical way for beginers to understand the structure of Record Keeping in Scotland. Between us we should be able to put together a more accurate picture of what there IS and what there ISN'T for everyone's benefit, beginer and seasoned Researcher.
1841:
#400 Abdie FIF
#406 Auchtermuchty FIF
#409 Balmerino FIF
#415 Ceres FIF
#416 Collessie FIF
#418 Creich FIF
#419 Cults FIF
#420 Cupar FIF
#421 Dairsie FIF
#423 Dunbog FIF
#439 Kinghorn FIF
#440 Kinglassie FIF
#442 Kirkcaldy FIF
#444 Leslie FIF
#577 Auchinleck
1861:
#380 Methven PER [Book #4]
1881:
#821 Dumfries DFS [Books #13-#27]
#822 Dunscore DFS
1891:
#793 KELSO ROX [Book #4]
Regards
SAM GIBSON
L.A.F.H.C.
I went through my notes last night, I was actually working on Commissariot Records for the web site, when I found the following list of missing censuses. These were prepared by David Thomson, an ex-Dundonian now living in Australia. David was a frequent visitor to the Los Angeles Centre and Presenter for the British Isles F.H.S. Seminars and was one of my mentors when I was learning the ins and outs of Scottish Records.
Like myself, David used the Post 1855 O.P.R. numbering system to identify Parishes in the 1841 and 1852 Censuses. He just did as I did and followed the LDS Catalogue. It seems to be the simplest and most logical way for beginers to understand the structure of Record Keeping in Scotland. Between us we should be able to put together a more accurate picture of what there IS and what there ISN'T for everyone's benefit, beginer and seasoned Researcher.
1841:
#400 Abdie FIF
#406 Auchtermuchty FIF
#409 Balmerino FIF
#415 Ceres FIF
#416 Collessie FIF
#418 Creich FIF
#419 Cults FIF
#420 Cupar FIF
#421 Dairsie FIF
#423 Dunbog FIF
#439 Kinghorn FIF
#440 Kinglassie FIF
#442 Kirkcaldy FIF
#444 Leslie FIF
#577 Auchinleck
1861:
#380 Methven PER [Book #4]
1881:
#821 Dumfries DFS [Books #13-#27]
#822 Dunscore DFS
1891:
#793 KELSO ROX [Book #4]
Regards
SAM GIBSON
L.A.F.H.C.
-
AndrewP
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6189
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:36 am
- Location: Edinburgh
-
DavidWW
- Posts: 5057
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:47 pm
Getting serious in terms of the different reference numbers used in 1851 compared with the other censuses, Andrew emailed me the following list which he gleaned from the LDS Library website, -
Aberdeen 168a 132-139
Dundee 282 202-216
Greenock 564 433-444
Paisley 573 460-468
Glasgow 644/1 534-572
Barony 622 573-606
Gorbals 644/2 607-623
St Cuthberts 685/2 694-698
Canongate 685/3 699
St Cuthberts 685/2 700-722
Edinburgh 685/1 723-741
Canongate 685/3 742-744
North Leith 692/1 745-746
South Leith 692/2 747-751
Also...
Barony-Milton 573-577
Barony-Anderston 578-582
Barony-Blythswood 583-589
Barony-Camlachie 590-591
Barony-Calton 592-598
Barony-Bridgeton 599-603
Barony-Maryhill 604
Barony-Shettleston 605-606
Andrew ends his email with a word of warning that there are
no guarantees regarding the above information.
Davie
Aberdeen 168a 132-139
Dundee 282 202-216
Greenock 564 433-444
Paisley 573 460-468
Glasgow 644/1 534-572
Barony 622 573-606
Gorbals 644/2 607-623
St Cuthberts 685/2 694-698
Canongate 685/3 699
St Cuthberts 685/2 700-722
Edinburgh 685/1 723-741
Canongate 685/3 742-744
North Leith 692/1 745-746
South Leith 692/2 747-751
Also...
Barony-Milton 573-577
Barony-Anderston 578-582
Barony-Blythswood 583-589
Barony-Camlachie 590-591
Barony-Calton 592-598
Barony-Bridgeton 599-603
Barony-Maryhill 604
Barony-Shettleston 605-606
Andrew ends his email with a word of warning that there are
no guarantees regarding the above information.
Davie
-
sam gibson
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:56 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CALIFORNIA
MISSING CENSUSES
Good morning Andrew + Davie,
I have gone through the Film Reels in our collection to verify the Parishes on the MISSING LIST.
On the 2nd Filming of the 1841 Census, the LDS identified each parish with the Post Parochial Numbering System and this is probably where there has been confusion on identifications. I did not have copies of the Reels for 1881 DUMFRIES + DUNSCORE, or 1891 KELSO, but will order them from Salt Lake and examine them. I could examine the Fiche copies for the 1881 Census, but some of that was filmed in the wrong order, at least for Lanark and Lesmahagow in LANARKSHIRE. They somehow got some of their files twisted around or it was the people doing the inputting.
The following is a breakdown of the Reels pertaining to the Missing Parishes, sorry if it's a bit long-winded for you folks.
1841 CENSUS [2nd Filming] Film-SL#1042699
#399 ABBOTSHALL ED1-ED12
#400 ABDIE missing
#401 ABERDOUR ED1-ED8
#403 ANSTRUTHER-EASTER ED1-ED2
#404 ANSTRUTHER-WESTER ED1-ED2
#405 ARNGASK ED1-ED2
#406 AUCHTERMUCHTY missing
#407 AUCHTERDERRAN ED1-ED6
#408 BALLINGRAY ED1-ED3
#409 BALMERINO missing
#410 BEATH ED1-ED3
#411 BURNTISLAND ED1-ED2
#412 CAMERON ED1-ED4
1841 CENSUS [2nd Filming] FILM-SL#1042700
#413 CARNBEE ED1-ED4
#414 CARNOCK ED1-ED6
#415 CERES missing
#416 COLLESSIE missing
#417 CRAIL ED1-ED8
#418 CREICH missing
#419 CULTS missing
#420 CUPAR missing
#421 DAIRSIE missing
#422 DALGETTY ED1-ED4
#423 DUNBOG missing
#424 DUNFERMLINE ED1-ED28 [cont.]
1841 CENSUS [2nd Filming] FILM-SL#1042702
#429 FERRY-PORT-ON-CRAIG ED1-ED3
#430 FLISK ED1-ED2
#431 FORGAN ED1-ED2
#432 INVERKEITHING ED1-ED5
#434 KENNOWAY ED1
#435 KETTLE ED1-ED4
#436 KILCONQUHAR ED1-ED8
#437 KILMANY ED1-ED3
#438 KILRENNY ED1-ED5
#439 KINGHORN missing
#440 KINGLASSIE missing
#441 KINGSBARNS ED1-ED4
#442 KIRKCALDY missing
1841 CENSUS [2nd Filming] FILM-SL#1042703
#443 LARGO ED1-ED7
#444 LESLIE missing
#445 LEUCHARS ED1-ED8
#446 LOGIE ED1-ED2
#447 MARKINCH ED1-ED15
#448 MONIMALL ED1
#449 MOONZIE ED1
#450 NEWBURGH ED1-ED7
#451 NEWBURN ED1-ED2
#452 PITTENWEEM ED1-ED2
1841 CENSUS [2nd Filming] FILM-SL#1042730
#574 PORT GLASGOW ED1-ED14
#575 RENFREW ED1-ED10
#576 ARDROSSAN ED1-ED13
#577 AUCHINLECK missing
#578 AYR ED1-ED7 [cont.]
1861 CENSUS FILM-SL#0103894
#371 LECROFT ED1-ED4
#372 LETHENDY + KINLOCH ED1-ED2
#373 LITTLE DUNKELD ED1-ED7
#374 LOGIE ED1-ED10
#375 LOGIEALMOND ED1-ED6
#376 LOGIERAIT ED1-ED6
#377 LONGFORGAN ED1-ED5
#378 MADDERTY ED1-ED3
#379 MEIGLE ED1-ED4
#380 METHVEN ED1-ED7
ED8 missing
Enumerators notes state "Enumeration District Nos. 1-8 complete"
#381 MONEYDIE ED1
#382 MONZIE ED1-ED4
#383 MONZIEVAIRD + STROWAN ED1-ED6
#384 MOULIN ED1-ED8
ED9 missing
Enumerators notes state "Enumeration Dsitrict Nos. 1-9 complete"
#385 MUCKART ED1-ED3
#386a MUTHILL ED1-ED11
1901 CENSUS FILM-LA#40001045
#452 PITTENWEEM ED1-ED3
ED4 missing
#453 St ANDREWS + St LEONARDS ED1-ED15
1901 CENSUS FILM-LA#40001088
#559/B BRIDGE of WEIR ED1-ED5
#560/L CATHCART ED1
ED2 missing
ED3-ED13
1901 CENSUS FILM-LA#40001345
#902S SHIPPING ED1-ED10
ED11 not used
#903S SHIPPING ED12-ED20
1901 CENSUS FILM-LA#40001346
#903S SHIPPING ED21-ED36
ED37 not used
ED38-ED39
ED40 not used
ED41 not used
ED42-ED45
#904S SHIPPING ED1-ED2
#905S SHIPPING ED1
#906S SHIPPING ED1
Regards
SAM
I have gone through the Film Reels in our collection to verify the Parishes on the MISSING LIST.
On the 2nd Filming of the 1841 Census, the LDS identified each parish with the Post Parochial Numbering System and this is probably where there has been confusion on identifications. I did not have copies of the Reels for 1881 DUMFRIES + DUNSCORE, or 1891 KELSO, but will order them from Salt Lake and examine them. I could examine the Fiche copies for the 1881 Census, but some of that was filmed in the wrong order, at least for Lanark and Lesmahagow in LANARKSHIRE. They somehow got some of their files twisted around or it was the people doing the inputting.
The following is a breakdown of the Reels pertaining to the Missing Parishes, sorry if it's a bit long-winded for you folks.
1841 CENSUS [2nd Filming] Film-SL#1042699
#399 ABBOTSHALL ED1-ED12
#400 ABDIE missing
#401 ABERDOUR ED1-ED8
#403 ANSTRUTHER-EASTER ED1-ED2
#404 ANSTRUTHER-WESTER ED1-ED2
#405 ARNGASK ED1-ED2
#406 AUCHTERMUCHTY missing
#407 AUCHTERDERRAN ED1-ED6
#408 BALLINGRAY ED1-ED3
#409 BALMERINO missing
#410 BEATH ED1-ED3
#411 BURNTISLAND ED1-ED2
#412 CAMERON ED1-ED4
1841 CENSUS [2nd Filming] FILM-SL#1042700
#413 CARNBEE ED1-ED4
#414 CARNOCK ED1-ED6
#415 CERES missing
#416 COLLESSIE missing
#417 CRAIL ED1-ED8
#418 CREICH missing
#419 CULTS missing
#420 CUPAR missing
#421 DAIRSIE missing
#422 DALGETTY ED1-ED4
#423 DUNBOG missing
#424 DUNFERMLINE ED1-ED28 [cont.]
1841 CENSUS [2nd Filming] FILM-SL#1042702
#429 FERRY-PORT-ON-CRAIG ED1-ED3
#430 FLISK ED1-ED2
#431 FORGAN ED1-ED2
#432 INVERKEITHING ED1-ED5
#434 KENNOWAY ED1
#435 KETTLE ED1-ED4
#436 KILCONQUHAR ED1-ED8
#437 KILMANY ED1-ED3
#438 KILRENNY ED1-ED5
#439 KINGHORN missing
#440 KINGLASSIE missing
#441 KINGSBARNS ED1-ED4
#442 KIRKCALDY missing
1841 CENSUS [2nd Filming] FILM-SL#1042703
#443 LARGO ED1-ED7
#444 LESLIE missing
#445 LEUCHARS ED1-ED8
#446 LOGIE ED1-ED2
#447 MARKINCH ED1-ED15
#448 MONIMALL ED1
#449 MOONZIE ED1
#450 NEWBURGH ED1-ED7
#451 NEWBURN ED1-ED2
#452 PITTENWEEM ED1-ED2
1841 CENSUS [2nd Filming] FILM-SL#1042730
#574 PORT GLASGOW ED1-ED14
#575 RENFREW ED1-ED10
#576 ARDROSSAN ED1-ED13
#577 AUCHINLECK missing
#578 AYR ED1-ED7 [cont.]
1861 CENSUS FILM-SL#0103894
#371 LECROFT ED1-ED4
#372 LETHENDY + KINLOCH ED1-ED2
#373 LITTLE DUNKELD ED1-ED7
#374 LOGIE ED1-ED10
#375 LOGIEALMOND ED1-ED6
#376 LOGIERAIT ED1-ED6
#377 LONGFORGAN ED1-ED5
#378 MADDERTY ED1-ED3
#379 MEIGLE ED1-ED4
#380 METHVEN ED1-ED7
ED8 missing
Enumerators notes state "Enumeration District Nos. 1-8 complete"
#381 MONEYDIE ED1
#382 MONZIE ED1-ED4
#383 MONZIEVAIRD + STROWAN ED1-ED6
#384 MOULIN ED1-ED8
ED9 missing
Enumerators notes state "Enumeration Dsitrict Nos. 1-9 complete"
#385 MUCKART ED1-ED3
#386a MUTHILL ED1-ED11
1901 CENSUS FILM-LA#40001045
#452 PITTENWEEM ED1-ED3
ED4 missing
#453 St ANDREWS + St LEONARDS ED1-ED15
1901 CENSUS FILM-LA#40001088
#559/B BRIDGE of WEIR ED1-ED5
#560/L CATHCART ED1
ED2 missing
ED3-ED13
1901 CENSUS FILM-LA#40001345
#902S SHIPPING ED1-ED10
ED11 not used
#903S SHIPPING ED12-ED20
1901 CENSUS FILM-LA#40001346
#903S SHIPPING ED21-ED36
ED37 not used
ED38-ED39
ED40 not used
ED41 not used
ED42-ED45
#904S SHIPPING ED1-ED2
#905S SHIPPING ED1
#906S SHIPPING ED1
Regards
SAM
-
CatrionaL
- Posts: 1519
- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:11 pm
- Location: Scottish Borders
-
AndrewP
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6189
- Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:36 am
- Location: Edinburgh