what happened to Catherine andGeorge.....

[angel]

Hello

I am looking for the marriage of Peter Menzies and Ann Steven the only problem is that I do not know if they married in Scotland or England as Peter has habit of marrying after some of his children were born.

Two children were born in Edinburgh 1868 and 1869 in Edinburgh then there was a 7 year gap when he had two other children 1875 Liverpool and 1880 Manchester.

Peter and Ann were both born in Edinburgh and he was already married and in 1869 had 2 children to 2 different women.

In the 1881 Peter and Ann have only the 2 English born children with them and in 1891 Ann is on her own with the same 2 children. Also in 1891 Peter is with 3rd wife and a son from wife No 1. So what happened to Catherine and George? A real little mystery.

Heather

[JustJean]

Hello Heather

I'm not sure I'm following your question.....or is that 2 questions....

What happened to Catherine and George?
When and where did Peter Menzie and Ann Steven marry?

Those are the 2 questions..... right??

Ok...now for my questions

Who did Peter marry as his first wife?
Who is the mother of Catherine and George...or when were they born?
Do Catherine and George appear on any census?
What are the names of all his children and wives...in order please?

Sorry.....

Best wishes
Jean

[angel]

Hi Jean

The queationas I am asking are:-

1.What happened to Catherine and George
2.When did peter and Ann marry

I did get carried away bit so here goes

Eliza Dalgliesh
Ann Steven
Margaret Watt

That's the wives

Ann is with Peter in 1881 with Elizabeth b. 1875 Liverpool and Albert b.1880 Manchester.

Catherine b. 1868 and George 1869 both born Edinburgh to Ann And Peter but not in that census.

Ann is on her own with Elizabeth and Albert as a widow still no Catherine or George.

Here is the fun part in 1891 Peter was married definately to Eliza and to Margaret.

Peter had a total of 16 children with 3 women.

I don't know if Catherine or George are on any census I have posted in that forum.

Peter would have married Ann somewhere as he married the other 2 and I can get certs for them.

Hope I have answered all you questions sorry about that he causes me any amount of trouble.

Heather

[JustJean]

Hi Heather

Bit by bit I’m trying to lay all the pieces out here. First off….this must be the census you referred to….

Dwelling: 52 Hewitt St
Census Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Source: FHL Film 1341952 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 3990 Folio 131 Page 10
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Peter MENZIES M 34 M Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Head Handicap: Blind
Occ: Street Musician
Ann MENZIES M 31 F Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Elizabeth MENZIES 6 F Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Rel: Daug
Occ: Scholar
Albert MENZIES 5 m M Manchester, Lancashire, England
Rel: Son

And you will notice that Peter is stated as age 34. Meaning he was born abt 1847. Meaning if he was the Peter Menzies that fathered the James Menzie listed below born to Eliza Dagleish in July 1860…assuming 9 months for a typical gestation…..he was perhaps 12 or 13 at the time????? And maybe blind too????

Is there any chance at all that you have more than one Peter????

This is a great story but…..how do you know this is the same guy anyhow….I’m not convinced….yet!!


Offspring of Peter Menzies and Eliza Dagleish from an IGI parent search

JAMES MENZIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 13 JUL 1860 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland

RACHEL MENZIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 19 JAN 1863 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland

GEORGINA MENZIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 18 SEP 1864 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland

ELIZA MENZIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 29 DEC 1866 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland

PETER MENZIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 22 JAN 1869 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland

GEORGE BLELLOCH MENZIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 24 APR 1871 Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland


Offspring of Peter Menzies and Ann Steven from an IGI parent search

CATHERINE WATERSTON MENZIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 30 JUN 1868 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland

GEORGE MENZIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 09 DEC 1869 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland

As for Catharine or George….have you searched for them in the 1871 census yet? Especially if Peter is the same fellow who fathered George Blelloch Menzies then he was probably still hanging out in Edinburgh then….with which “wife” I’m not so sure. Catharine and George may have both died before 1881 and since you know Peter and Ann probably weren’t definitely in England until about 1875 then you might find their deaths on SP between birth year and 1875 which would be an easy search. I looked for both on the 1881 census and you’re quite right…they don’t seem to be there.

I did find though on SP a marriage between Peter Menzies and Ann Stevenson…..which only clouds this picture further….I have no idea if he is your Peter or not….but am leaning towards NOT as he was a coal carter and not blind……

1 1866 MENZIES PETER STEVENSON ANN CANONGATE EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/03 0292

….But I do strongly suspect they are the parents of Catherine and George due to the names of their parents on the MC.

So perhaps Catherine and George are not yours after all.

Have I only made matters worse???

Hope not….

Best wishes
Jean

[angel]

Hi Jean

Ann Stevenson of 1866 is not mine I am afraid some had already checked that one out for me.

I have 1861 census where Peter is with Eliza and is age 23 which makes hin born about 1838. I had the chance to go to Edinburgh earlier this year and the only birth that I could find for Peter was 1836. He was also blind by then.

In 1871 Peter was with Eliza in Edinburgh with 3 children one of which was born in England. So Ann must have been on her own somewhere with 2 small children.

Does this help or confused you

Heather

[JustJean]

Hi Heather


I have more questions then

Since you have the images and I don't.....

What is the stated name and age of the child born in England that is with Peter and Eliza in 1871?

Why do you think Ann was on her own with two small children in 1871?

Do you have the MC of Peter and Eliza? What was his age and occupation then?

Perhaps Ann Stevenson is not yours....but that also eliminates George and Catherine Waterston Menzies in my book! Ann Stevenson's mother was Catherine Waterston and the Peter Menzies (coal carter that she married in 1866) named his father as George on their MC. I honestly don't feel these two children belong to your Peter Menzies and Ann Steven.

Yup...I'm confused and now I have to go out on errands ...but I shall return !

Best wishes
Jean

[angel]

Hi Jean

As Peter is with Eliza in 1871 then Ann has to be somewhere when the census was taken.

In 1861Peter and Eliza had a son John Menzies born England age 2 making him born about 1859.

Peter was a Musican when Most of his other children to Eliza were born the exception being George Blelloch he is a jute worker then.

The information about Eliza and Peter plus the 1871 census was given to me by a researcher whom I paid to do this work for me.

I don't have their MC yet as I have not sent away for it but they were Married in a civl cermony in Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

Heather

[Andy]

I don't know who the "Professional" was but a fair bit of Conclusion Jumping has been going on.

If your Peter was the Blind Musician then there are likely to be two partners but, as far I can see, no wives.

Peter supposedly married Elizabeth/Eliza Dalglish Dec 31st 1859 in Newcastle upon Tyne. Seven children were born to this couple:

John born about 1859 in England (no registration of birth perhaps NOT Peter's natural son)

1. GEORGE BLELLOCH MENZIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 24 APR 1871 Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
2. ELIZA MENZIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 29 DEC 1866 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
3. GEORGINA MENZIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 18 SEP 1864 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
4. JAMES MENZIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 13 JUL 1860 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
5. PETER MENZIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 22 JAN 1869 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
6. RACHEL MENZIES - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 19 JAN 1863 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland

Rachel died in Infancy in Edinburgh
There is no sign of a death for Georgina after 1864 and no sign in any census.

John, George and Peter all married and died in Lanark (some married twice).

Elizabeth (Dalglish) Menzies died "a widow" in 1889 in Milton.

John Menzies first married in 1884 father named as Peter Menzies Handloom Weaver (Dec) and Elizabeth Dalglish (living)

George first married just after his mother's death in 1889 brother John and sister-in-law Margaret (Logan) Menzies were witnesses.

Fairly sure this is young Peter in 1881:

Institution: "United Industrial School"
Census Place: Edinburgh Tron Church, Edinburgh, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0224000 GRO Ref Volume 685-3 EnumDist 5 Page 11
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Patrick GORDON U 13 M Edinr, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Pupil
Occ: Scholar
Peter MENZIES U 13 M Edinr, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Pupil
Occ: Scholar

The only likely George is:

Institution: "Industrial School" 13 Captain St Greenock
Census Place: West Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203575 GRO Ref Volume 564-3 EnumDist 46 Page 5

Geo. MENZIES 13 M Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Scholar
Occ: Scholar

The Peter Menzies who married Ann Stevens(on) is a completely different Peter. Ann died in 1871.

Here he is in 1881 with his second wife:

Dwelling: 25 Whitehorse Close
Census Place: Edinburgh Canongate, Edinburgh, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0224002 GRO Ref Volume 685-3 EnumDist 85 Page 14
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Peter MENZIES M 41 M Edinr, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Coal Carter
Catherine MENZIES M 30 F Edinr, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Wife
William O'NEIL U 13 M Edinr, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Stepson
Occ: Scholar
John FRASER U 10 M Edinr, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Stepson
Occ: Scholar
Henry MENZIES U 6 M Edinr, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Scholar
Peter MENZIES U 4 M Edinr, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Son
Francis MENZIES U 1 M Edinr, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Son

The Peter in England in 1881 is probably yours but the "wife" wasn't Ann Stevens(on). More likely to be Ann Grey. In 1861 Peter is listed as 23 giving a rough bith of about 1838. In 1871 his age is given as 28 giving a 1843 birth date and in 1881 (if it's the same Peter) he's listed as 34 giving an 1847 date of birth

Ann, Eliza A. and Albert are in Liverpool in 1891, Ann is widowed. Albert had the middle name of Bennett.

The Peter Menzies who married Margaret Watt is nothing to do with Blind Peter, he married in Birmingham in 1889, his father was a Peter Menzies born in Scotland but this Peter was born in Northumberland.

This may be your Peter in 1841:

Piece: SCT1841/685 Place: Canongate-Midlothian Enumeration District: 3
Civil Parish: Canongate Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island:
Folio: 3 Page: 3
Address: 107 Canongate, Lochends Close

Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
BROWN Charles M 25 Hatter Jrnymn England
BROWN Mary F 20 Midlothian
BROWN Richard M 1 Midlothian
STEWART Duncan M 15 Hairdresser Midlothian
MENZIES John M 30 Joiner Jrnymn Outside Census County (1841)
MENZIES Isabella F 30 Midlothian
MENZIES Alexander M 7 Midlothian
MENZIES Peter M 5 Midlothian
MENZIES John M 2 Midlothian
MCRAE John M 35 Shopman Midlothian
MCRAE Elizabeth F 15 Outside Census County (1841)
MCRAE Elizabeth F 2 Midlothian
MILLER Helen F 15 Female Servant Outside Census County (1841)

[sporran]

Hello Andy,

The Peter Menzies who married Margaret Watt is nothing to do with Blind Peter, he married in Birmingham in 1889, his father was a Peter Menzies born in Scotland but this Peter was born in Northumberland.

I disagree! The 1901 census for 27 William Street Glasgow includes Peter Menzies, 54, street musician, blind, and Thomasina Menzies, under 1 month. Her birth on 24th March 1901 gives her parents as Peter Menzies, musician, and Margaret Menzies, ms Watt, married on 19th March 1899 in Birmingham.


Regards,

John

[angel]

hello

Just a point I have to make as I have not studied the post but one thing that jump out at me is my great grannies marriege. It is in hmy grandmas birth certificate that Peter Menzies married Margaret Watt 19 March 1889 Birningham.

Heather

p.s Eliza Dalgliesh and Peter Menzies married in sept 1865 after some of the children were born I can send away for a certificate.

also in 1881 census Peter in Manchester with Ann and children Elizabeth and Albert. I have a copy of the census and it is my Peter as he is recorded as being a blib street musician.