1851/61 census help .....

[Rab]

Hi all,

If someone could help me out with these I'd appreciate it. I have spent alot of credits on SP already searching for these people. That is something I don't mind doing, although the wife would not be so quick to agree, but I am still unable to find these people. I've tried using wildcards too and various permutations.

Just the one from 1851 both in Lanark:

FAMILY ONE- Lanark
Mary Russell, ms Wylie (Abt 54 years old)
John Russell (Abt 14 years old)
(Both appear on the 1861 and 1871 census. Mary's husband was named John but I am unsure when he died but almost certainly prior to 1861)

A few from 1861. Not the only ones. The 1861 census seems to be giving me the most problems.

FAMILY TWO- Midlothian
Richard Bradbrook (Abt 71 years old)
Janet Bradbrook, ms Cives (Abt 76 years old)
Richard Bradbrook (Abt 34 years old)
(This family appears on the 1851 census. The older Richard died in 1873 as widower of Janet and the younger Richard died in 1864 unmarried, Janet was dead at this time too.)

FAMILY THREE- Richard and Helen Marr (twin brother and sister)
Richard Bradbrook Marr (Abt 20 years old)
Helen Bradbrook Marr, ms Cives (Abt 20 years old)
(This pair are not with their family nor with their siblings. They both appear in the 1851 census. Helen emigrated to New Zealand some time in the 1860s. Richard married in this decade and appears in the census thereafter until his death.
Their brother Hugh cannot be found either in this census year but unlike those two he cannot be traced after.)


Thanks

Rab

[Jack]

Hi Rab,
Nothing really "sticking out" for Mary RUSSELL & son John in 1851.
Would there be any other children?
Ta - Jack
ps, is Mary as Margaret in 1861? Born Bothwell?

[Rab]

Hi Jack,

Thanks for the reply. John and Mary had a few children that I know of but most of them are of an age where they would probably not have been living at home in 1851. Certainly the second youngest had already moved out. I've tried looking for the youngest child, John, too in 1851 without any success. I also tried to find the family on Freecen in 1841 without any success either.

Just to be a bit more specific here are the details I have for the Russell family:

John Russell, farmer, unknown birthplace and birthdate.
Mary Rusell, ms Wylie, born 1796 in Ayr
Isabella Russell, born 1815 in Mearns
William Russell, born 1820 in Mearns
*Janet Russell, born 1822 in Mearns
Mary Russell, born 1825 in Paisley High
James Russell, born 1829 in Paisley High
**Marion Russell, born 1832 in Barony
***John Russell, born 1837 in Gorbals.
Elizabeth Russell, born in 1839 in Gorbals.

*Janet married Robert Hart. In 1851 she is living with him and their daughter Mary (b1847 in Gorbals). In the 1861 and 1871 census both Janet and her daughter Mary are living with Mary. Both Janet and her daughters are Cotton Winders in both censuses.

**Marion married Robert Marr and was living with him in 1851. Marion appears on every census through to 1901 but no Russells are ever present there.

***John is living with his mother in 1861 and died in 1864. His occupation is unclear but is at Broomielaw so must have something to do with the shipyards.

[Jack]

Hi Rab,
No wonder i couldn't find them in 1851, when you said Lanark, i thought you'd meant the County of.
The family are there in Glasgow - but seems it's as RUSSEL (ending in one "L").
Maybe easier searching for a Mary HARTs age 5 - there are 2, so choose the St. George one.
The number might be slightly different on SP.
--
1851 cens 644-1 (539) Ed 44 p 9 Lines 13-18 (City - St. George)
Mary RUSSEL, 51
William RUSSEL, 29
Janet RUSSEL 27
Mary RUSSEL 25
John RUSSEL, 14
Mary HART, 5
--
Jack
ps, the other 5yr old Mary Hart has number 644-1 (572) Ed 18 p 22 Line 11 (City - St. James's).
pps, maybe use some *wildcards* on the BRADBROOK name for 1861? you'll mind it was as BROADFOOT once!
ppps, the reason i'd asked about Mary as Margt. was because in Bothwell 1851 there is a Margt. Russell 64 & John 24...
--

[Rab]

Hi Jack,

Thanks very much for all that. Spot on again and I only wish I had posted this a week ago rather than trying to go it alone. My determination to do it on my own got the better of me and I don't like giving up.

Cheers for the pointers too. I've tried all sorts of combinations for the Bradbrooks including the one you found before. Brad*, Brock*, Broad*, etc. I'm pretty sure it will be there and I'm just missing it again- like the Murr instead of Marr.

Apologies in the last post for not clearing up the Margaret or Mary. As far as I was aware she was just a Mary but I forgot to include that. Mind you that goes for nothing. Last week I spent two days looking for a Peter Gray of various spellings only to finally track him down through one of his children as William Gray in the 1851 census. Fun and games- and alot of wasted credits.

Once again thanks for the help Jack.

Cheers

Rab

[Jack]

Hi Rab,
Glad you've now found the RUSSELLs in 1851, and this looks like them in 1841.
Your knowledge of father John has increased just a tad - age; a few years older than Mary,
birthplace; somewhere in Scotland...the big question being; where?
--
1841 cens 646-1 Ed 19 p 2 (Govan - Kingston)
Maxwellton Place, ?Mr Struthers? Land [i'm very unsure on whose land]
John RUSSELL, 45, porter, b SCT
Mary RUSSELL, 40, -----------b SCT
Isobel RUSSELL, 20, -----------b SCT
William RUSSELL, 20, porter, b SCT
Janet RUSSELL, 15, cotton p.l.w., b SCT
Mary RUSSELL, 15, cotton p.l.w., b SCT
James RUSSELL, 11, --------------b SCT
Marion RUSSELL, 9, --------------b LKS
John RUSSELL, 4, ----------------b LKS
Elizabeth RUSSELL, 2, --------- b LKS
--
Could you say who Richard Bradbrook MARR was married to? Was he a brassfounder?
Ta - Jack

[Rab]

Thanks very much Jack for the Russell family in 1841. I've been hanging back for the 1841 census on SP so this is a great early present. On the death of Marion Russell (later Marr) her father was recorded as a farmer but it looks like in 1841 he was more of a helping hand.

This gives me alot of info now though. As you said I now have a rough approximtion of his age which I didn't have before. At least I now also have a rough idea of when he died too. Although there is no place of birth I'm strongly pulled to the idea that he was born in Ayrshire as that is where the couple married in 1814 and where is wife was born. Thereafter is occupation probably made then move around a bit. Most likely he died around the Glasgow area in the 1840s.

Your last line is very interesting. You are once again spot on- Richard Bradbrook Marr was a Brassfounder. He was born around 1840 in Barony and married Agnes McKinnon in 1863 in Greenock. According to the 1871 and 1881 census the couple lived in Govan then in the 1891 and 1901 census they were living in Greenock where Richard died in 1912. Strangely though on his 1863 marriage Richard's residence was recorded as Dumbarton, as was Agnes' too.

[Jack]

Hi Rab,
Here's a 'possible' for Richard MARR in 1861, but he's in Glasgow.
I'd thought it might be him who'd married Agnes McKINNON in Greenock 1863, and was maybe there in 1861.
Possibly he was working in one of the Dumbarton shipyards when he married?
Is it just coincidence that daur Helen born 1868 has the middle name of McALLISTER?!
--
1861 cens 644-10 Ed 104 p 8 (Gorbals)
10 Portugal Street.
Robert McALLISTER, head, marr, 31, baker j/mab, b Ireland
Janet McALLISTER, wife, marr, 30, --------------------b Partick, LKS
Richard MARES, boarder, u/m 22, brass founder, b Glasgow, LKS
--
Jack

[Rab]

Hi Jack,

Thanks for the information, it is very interesting. That Richard certainly looks like a possibility. I'll have to look into it further though because it definitely looks like you could be on to something there.

As you said the couple had a daughter named Helen McAllister Marr in 1868. She was, I think, named after Richard's twin sister Helen. Helen Bradbrook Marr married a William McAllister in New Zealand in 1864. I assume that is who the child is named after but maybe not. The McAllisters this Richard was staying with could be related.

I'll look into it further. Thanks again.

Cheers

Rab

[Rab]

I'm begining to think you may have found something here Jack.

I've managed to Find Robert McAllister in the 1841 census and he had a younger brother named William. Although the information I have, which is not my own research, suggests the birthplace does not match the birth year does with Helen Marr's husband. Unfortunately though the couple married and died in New Zealand so I can't confirm that for now- certainly looks possible.

Also what you said about Richard's occupation sounds right too. The family did work in the shipyards so the areas mentioned do sound like a reason for being there. Richard's dad worked at Broomielaw and stayed in Dunfermline for a short while. Richard's older brother, also a brass founder, moved to Liverpool for two decades too.

Thanks once again.

Rab